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Pay to Win... Good idea?

JethroHotep's Avatar JethroHotep9/29/16 11:27 pm
1 emeralds 1.8k 31
10/25/2016 5:43 am
Calendar Man's Avatar Calendar Man
I run a small survival server, semi vanilla, and concentrate on plugins that make the experience workable without changing the nature of the game. I was thinking of adding a store to help pay server costs, selling things like land claim blocks, experience, enchanted books, diamonds, etc. A friend called this "Pay to Win", and said it would drive off the very users that would be attracted to a semi-vanilla server. The premise is that they would take exception to other folks paying for resources that they should be earning in game play, cheapening everyone's in-game accomplishments. I see the point, but wondering is it really that big a deal? Is there a line I shouldn't cross? Like maybe selling land claims and basic kit is fine, but not experience, diamonds, enchanted items, etc.

Anyone have any feelings on this?
Posted by JethroHotep's Avatar
JethroHotep
Level 15 : Journeyman Miner
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1
10/25/2016 3:32 am
Level 10 : Journeyman Dragon
brostermedia
brostermedia's Avatar
Chronhttp://pastebin.com/pXhFcx0D
.

-You are free to set whichever prices you want in your store. $500 hats are okay
looks like they are going the tf2 way
1
10/24/2016 3:03 pm
Level 15 : Journeyman Miner
JethroHotep
JethroHotep's Avatar
Thanks, Chron. The follow up blog post from Mojang https://mojang.com/2014/06/lets-talk-server-monetisation-the-follow-up-qa/ was exactly what I was looking for, and it was very clear on the bonus land claims issue. So, off they go. No bonus land claims reward for hard currency donations. It also listed a few good ideas on what was okay, so I think I'll implement some of those and hope for the best.
1
10/24/2016 2:42 pm
Level 47 : Master Cowboy
Chron
Chron's Avatar
http://pastebin.com/pXhFcx0D

This official email from Mojang states on Line 40 that additional/larger land claims is okay for creative, implying that it's not okay for survival.

I don't think additional land claims fall in line with the EULA for survival due to the fact that while yes, its primary intent is to protect builds, it can also be used to secure certain resources and prevent others from accessing these resources, which can give the user with the increased land claims an advantage over other players. For example, let's say you find a small jungle and you donate enough to be able to claim all of it. There might not be another jungle biome for thousands of blocks, and now everyone has restricted access to jungle wood, cocoa beans, etc.

Essentially, this can be used to create geographical monopolies on certain resources.
1
10/24/2016 1:31 pm
Level 16 : Journeyman Dragon
Latiodile
Latiodile's Avatar
killing people is illegal, i don't agree with the law, so i'm gonna go on a mass genocide

this relates to this thread more than you may think
1
10/24/2016 2:31 pm
Level 15 : Journeyman Miner
JethroHotep
JethroHotep's Avatar
Not really. In fact I reject both of your premises as simplistic. Killing is not illegal (see castle doctrine, stand your ground and the death penalty). Also, I initiated this thread to see how players feel about various server monetization strategies, and it seems to have expanded to include the EULA restrictions, which I think is also very useful. So the two questions for each monetization strategy are:

1) Does it annoy/repel players?
2) Does it conflict with the EULA?

In no way is anyone really suggesting we ignore the EULA, though one reply did imply it might not be enforced as aggressively for very small servers.

So, back to the subject at hand... It sounds like there is some consensus that monetizing anything that affects game play both conflcts with the EULA and annoys players. So, selling magic swords, flying abilities, and horses on a survival server is a bad idea. Selling hats, particle effects and "fame" are definitely fine.

This brings me to land claims. We are not allowing PVP or implementing sieges or other mechanics that extend the usefulness of claims. The land claims are all about grief prevention, simply allowing a player to protect what they have built, and everyone gets a reasonable amount of claim space. "Selling" additional claim limits seems to be a pretty common thing, directly supported by many donation plugins, implemented on many servers, and just making a great deal of sense in terms of a natural way to share the cost of the server. I have reviewed the EULA and Mojang's blog post clarifying it for server owners, and the concept of land claims is just not directly addressed. So my question is this: How do I find out for sure?

I am not asking for the answer, I am asking how to find the answer.

The actual EULA itself is at https://account.mojang.com/documents/minecraft_eula, and a clarifying blog post for server owners from Mojang is at https://mojang.com/2014/06/lets-talk-server-monetisation/. Anyone know where I can find anything more recent or that more directly addresses land claims?
1
10/25/2016 5:43 am
Level 44 : Master Sweetheart
Calendar Man
Calendar Man's Avatar
Maybe I'm just a goody-two-shoes, but the EULA still is law. Just because your server is small, doesn't allow you to slip under it.
As stated before, you CAN sell cosmetic items. So things like hats, capes, particles, pets (only if they're there to look pretty) and the like are okay.
But, seeing how defensive you are of this subject (breaking the law) then, I'd reccomend putting this stuff in the lobby, that's where all the things like /fly and /speed can be sold.
1
10/24/2016 12:04 pm
Level 15 : Journeyman Miner
JethroHotep
JethroHotep's Avatar
I am less worried about the eula and more worried about the opinions of my target players. Obviously I have to abide by the eula, but that is actually much less strict and no where near as aggressively enforced as pissing off my user base.

Since this is a survival server, for now I am only going to allow people to donate real money to be rewarded additional land claims, and even that will have a top limit. I don't think I want to monetize ranks since I may add some useful in-game benefits for those later. And I prefer to save cosmetic rewards for voting and in-game achievements. Thanks to everyone who responded for your time and thoughts on this.
1
10/24/2016 12:57 pm
Level 37 : Artisan Ranger
Caporal Dxl
Caporal Dxl's Avatar
The selling of land claims is illegal. Sorry mate. It's a pay wall restriction, and EULA blocks it.
I also respect that you listen to the opinion of people, but the EULA is a LAW and you must think of it before anything else.
1
10/21/2016 6:06 pm
Level 8 : Apprentice Hunter
Pysisco8
Pysisco8's Avatar
Lock this post now.
1
10/21/2016 6:08 pm
Level 22 : Expert Blockhead
raidarr
raidarr's Avatar
Last I checked, that was the OP's call or if some particular rule was being broken...

Is either applicable? We seem to be having a valid conversation from my view here.
1
10/21/2016 3:27 pm
Level 2 : Apprentice Miner
AgainError404
AgainError404's Avatar
On my old server i was selling Moderative ranks. And i had no problems at all.
I had around ~50 players...

Also i never cared about EULA, who cares what some from Serbia is doing.

They don't even know what is Serbia...
1
10/21/2016 6:01 pm
Level 22 : Expert Blockhead
raidarr
raidarr's Avatar
I find your claim hard to believe when in my experience servers selling staff ranks end up either losing all their players quickly or end up with utterly incompetent staff that cause the server's death.
1
10/22/2016 4:35 am
Level 2 : Apprentice Miner
AgainError404
AgainError404's Avatar
With 3 strike system it went really well. I had around ~60 players all the time. I wanted everybody who paid for server, got a chance to help. They have been monitored by me and 3 other Managers. Never had any problem. I closed a server because i had to go at University...
1
10/19/2016 5:59 pm
Level 1 : New Miner
creeperparty
creeperparty's Avatar
Anything besides cosmetics is too unbalanced IMO.
1
10/18/2016 3:43 pm
Level 54 : Grandmaster Creeper Hugger
Caribik
Caribik's Avatar
Ok I understand what you mean and I think its fine to pay for diamonds, but not for xp. Jeez! Pretty much if you are gonna add an economy system to your server, make it that you can buy in-game money for real money for buying resources. But for this to be fair other players that don't spend real money should be able to obtain in-game money (Pretty much just add a selling feature too).
1
10/21/2016 6:23 pm
Level 70 : Legendary Engineer
Bertiecrafter
Bertiecrafter's Avatar
Giving the option to get stuff a different way than buying isn't legal.
Since the people buying EXTRA stuff, still have an advantage above other players.

AS I SAID BEFORE
anything influencing the game, no matter if other players can get it as well, can't be sold!
1
10/18/2016 10:29 am
Level 49 : Master Wizard
Sammo346
Sammo346's Avatar
An actual list of things you could sell legally:

Name-only ranks (Just something next to their name, not linked to kits or any restrictions)

Cosmetic pets

Disguises (as long as they can't be used to gain an advantage in a PVP environment, unless you let them use some disguises by default also)

Particle trails

(Banner) hats

Message space (like a hologram at spawn with the last donator's name on it) (this could be used for things like shop / town advertising depending on your server.
1
10/18/2016 2:39 am
Level 29 : Expert Birb
Auradyme
Auradyme's Avatar
I prefer Play2Win personally, like how I prefer PSN over Steam's levelling system.
1
10/18/2016 1:46 am
Level 37 : Artisan Ranger
Caporal Dxl
Caporal Dxl's Avatar
The other people explained why you cannot do that, but I'll put it in another way: it's ILLEGAL to sell things other than cosmetics on your server.
1
10/18/2016 1:55 am
Level 23 : Expert Dragonborn
NeflixNChill
NeflixNChill's Avatar
For small servers its still pretty much ok to sell things. Mojang only enforces the larger servers. I wouldn't worry about them coming after you unless your server has upwards of 200-400 concurrent players at all times of day.

I would 100% go ahead and open a buycraft store that sells commands and other helpful features, but NOT items such as diamonds, other ores, etc. It just seems tacky.

Some ideas for products to put in the store:

1. Ranks
2. Commands like /fly, /fix, /enchant (have it cost in game currency to enchant items using /enchant), etc
3. Certain items like crate keys, server staff heads, your own player head, beacon, etc
4. claims
5. Mounts: a type of pet that can be ridden around the server in order to save hunger and/ or move faster
6. McMMO or In game currency multipliers if you server uses these types of things

Hope this helps!
1
10/18/2016 10:03 am
Level 22 : Expert Blockhead
raidarr
raidarr's Avatar
I find it interesting how you consider raw items tacky but ranks (that connotate giving commands), commands (conveniences that can and very often do advance gameplay as much as a stack of diamonds would if not more), crate keys and the like that are pay to indirectly get items, claims that are territory to build which could be used otherwise or earned, mounts that are the definition of pay for convenience and slower hunger/faster speed, and multipliers on a plugin that, at higher levels and with configuration, can make the game far easier for users than a stack of diamonds ever would.
1
10/18/2016 2:02 am
Level 37 : Artisan Ranger
Caporal Dxl
Caporal Dxl's Avatar
Definetly not beacons (unless not on survival), mounts, only in hubs, McMMO - heck no. Multipliers - maybe... but those that affect the whole server (see Ssundee's channel). The others I'm not too sure of, but the thing that I'm 100% sure you can buy are cosmetics or even items that are only usable in hubs.
1
10/17/2016 10:33 pm
Level 1 : New Miner
creeperparty
creeperparty's Avatar
Not really. With all the free servers out there that are F2P and F2W, why pay to win?
1
10/17/2016 10:18 pm
Level 9 : Apprentice Explorer
Awesomness3000
Awesomness3000's Avatar
Read the EULA. No, it is not a good idea.
1
10/17/2016 6:12 pm
Level 53 : Grandmaster Architect
LightlySaltedBuilder
LightlySaltedBuilder's Avatar
i don't think the items is a good idea, however you could sell the /afk or /back commands, or just allow people to buy more /homes if your using those plugins. It's not giving people an unfair advantage besides the fact that they can afk farm or have multiple homes to teleport to.
1
10/17/2016 7:48 pm
Level 22 : Expert Blockhead
raidarr
raidarr's Avatar
You're just as afk with or without the command, afk is simply a convenience for other people - selling that doesn't actually give anything to the player getting it and is more desperate than anything else. The ability to quickly return to areas by speeds that could be much faster than others (/back) could be easily made to be a pay for advantage scenario, and that's even more the case with multiple homes.
1
10/18/2016 1:21 am
Level 70 : Legendary Engineer
Bertiecrafter
Bertiecrafter's Avatar
As far as I know, /afk is ony a message command.
But if this command allows players to stay longer AFK than others, it might give an unfair advantage with farms and other things. That would make it not allowed.

/homes is not allowed either, it allows for quick teleportations where others have to walk. Also this is pay to win (it influences gameplay).
Same goes for /back
1
10/17/2016 5:49 pm
Level 70 : Legendary Engineer
Bertiecrafter
Bertiecrafter's Avatar
Let's get things clear
Anything that influences gameplay is seen as pay to win.
Selling pets on a minigames server is allowed, but selling pets on a survival server isn't. They influence the game then.

Other things are particles and /fly in lobbies and minigame servers (selling /fly in survival servers isn't allowed, it influences gameplay)

You can also sell access. E.g by using a whitelist.
Another thing I remember is that you are not allowed to advertise your products in minecraft (through plugins) and thus, be the owner and get money from adverts.
You can easily google for the full eula.

HOWEVER, you are NOT allowed to do any of the options you came up with so far!

EDIT: Selling "land claims" could be seen as access, but they are in-game items and no, you are not allowed to do that as well.

EDIT 2:
The idea of "bonus" blocks is weird.... if the players get given a number of blocks and the builds aren't used for contests, you can give bonus blocks I guess...

But if there are contests, the blocks actually influence gameplay
And if players need to gather the blocks themselves, your "bonus" blocks aren't used ON TOP of what players would gather (saying that almost nobody uses more than needed), BUT INSTEAD are used as a shortcut to get to this amount faster.
(Well, unless you can magically force all players to gather a certain amount of blocks first and then sell the bonus blocks if a player has all the blocks required already. And you aren't doing contests)
1
10/17/2016 10:46 am
Level 15 : Journeyman Miner
JethroHotep
JethroHotep's Avatar
Thanks for the thoughtful answers, Nitwick. Kinda confirms what I thought. Setting up a donation "store" is really only going to work if:

1) There really is something unique and worthwhile to support. A straight install of Mojang's game server with little or no value added is not going to be worth supporting.

2) The rewards for donating should be limited, not letting anyone gain an unfair advantage just by spending real world cash.

Also, Latiodile, though confused about the application of the EULA, does bring up an important issue. There is a bright white line between what is and is not within the bounds of the EULA. Finding a way to have your players share the costs of hosting a reliable 24/7 server and maintaining a fun online environment is fine. Trying to actually profit directly from the Minecraft software is not fine. Staying on the right side of that line has to be a conscious choice.

I think I will setup automatic accrual of land claim blocks based on playing and building, with the option to donate a small amount to quickly acquire some bonus blocks. Most players will never need more than the blocks they naturally accrue. A very few will want to make very large builds or just reserve a big chunk of real estate so they have space around their builds. These are are the folks I am hoping will be willing to chip in to help pay for the server.

What we won't do is sell experience points, diamonds, enchantments, etc.

Does this sound like a good plan?
1
09/30/2016 12:30 am
Level 16 : Journeyman Dragon
Latiodile
Latiodile's Avatar
https://account.mojang.com/documents/minecraft_eula

ONE MAJOR RULE

The one major rule is that you must not distribute anything we've made unless we specifically agree to it. By "distribute anything we've made" what we mean is:

give copies of our Game to anyone else;
make commercial use of anything we've made;
try to make money from anything we've made; or
let other people get access to anything we've made in a way that is unfair or unreasonable;

pay to win anything falls under that last one
1
09/29/2016 11:39 pm
Level 22 : Expert Blockhead
raidarr
raidarr's Avatar
I try to stay away from right or wrong on this, as I believe it is all a matter of if you think it's worth spending money on in most cases. I do, however, think strongly as to why I don't ever spend money on servers.

Diamonds, books, experience. I got those already by getting minecraft and I can earn them all rather quickly on any server I pick, so i can either play the server that offers a level playing field (plenty of those) or has other people guy to get ahead, which devalues actual work. I can get all these things in single player and I can host a server and give myself a full inventory of diamond blocks, making the premise worthless unless your server offers things that I can't get by playing vanilla or another server. If you don't offer something new, I can get it elsewhere by some means or another for free, and so all land claims, experience, ranks, cosmetics, diamonds, books, kits, enchantments, fancy colors and tags are utterly worthless to me. I can pick up a staff rank on a server that's semi-vanilla and survival that makes everything you sell not worth the money to me because I can get the same thing for free elsewhere. Granted, not everyone can get staff ranks easily in this community (though it is a rather easy thing to do) but for me, I just don't see the value.

Why should I buy something on your server when I can get it elsewhere for free and if you don't offer an experience somewhere else doesn't offer?

Doesn't make it pay to win, that said - if you can earn everything you're selling, it's plainly not a pay=win scenario. If you didn't allow people with gameplay experience to get land claim blocks or kits by proving they're dedicated in activity, while offering these things to a brat who stole his mom's credit card, that is a line where I say "Nope.".

Apologies for being rambly, I didn't get coffee today. Still, I suppose it beats me not having coffee and being in a poor mood >.>
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