Excellent philosophical discussion guys. I'm really impressed. However, it has been debated to death and is WAAAAAAAAY off the original topic (which is "why are we here" not "does God exist.") So I am locking it.

Without adding my opinion, you'll notice.

my last post for tonight, get of the topic of religion and on the topic of the question... goodnight

Can we get off the topic of God? Everybody always tries to prove that God isn't real. Christians are the ones trying to be proven wrong. Theres several other religions out there that have no scientific evidence. Just leave em alone alright? You've made your point!

BleydIt's pretty obvious I wasn't comparing time travel to religion, just showing that your argument is illogical by using on a different subject.

That didn't show the argument was illogical, that just showed you picking another subject. If anything, it reinforces my statement.

I agree, radical groups like these give the whole of religion a bad name. They look at a few verses and ignore the rest, like the ones about being loving and understanding toward people rather than persecuting them.

Yes, the first book is doom and gloom and an angry God. Pissed off at its own creation. Oops. There goes Omniscience (yet again). It should have known Adam was going to eat the apple and damn all of mankind. By that logic alone, it has no right to be angry at anyone but itself for failing to produce the perfection it claimed it had.

To really understand these references, you have to know how things worked in those times. When most people hear the word slavery, images of lowly laborers being beaten and neglected come to mind, but the indentured servitude of Jewish law made this more akin to the relationship between a paid worker and an employee. Jesus even urged that both parties were to maintain mutual respect for one another.

And that's how the bible shows slavery. Indentured servitude is slavery in PC terms. Slavery is slavery. Mutual respect urged or not. This argument does nothing for you and is akin to simplistic christian apologetics.

The Bible is not 'anti-woman' in a chauvinistic sense. Most cultures throughout history - including the church - have not allowed women to hold positions of authority simply because it was not commonplace for them to be educated in such matter. Only in the past few centuries have women risen through the ranks in monumental numbers and become more empowered in every aspect of society.

The fact that women had to "rise through the ranks" speaks for itself. Chauvinistic indeed. Religion remains highly chauvinistic to this day.

You answer this question yourself by quoting three different books of the Bible. Each anecdote was written by a different man, so what they heard and which parts they found significant enough to write would have varied.

Point? They each claim to the truth. Which one do YOU follow?

Show me the verses you are talking about then. Where is benevolence defined, and when is God being malevolent?

Go ask your pastor if God is perfectly good. Any answer other than "Yes" is worthy of a grand smiting. The bible proclaims God "perfect in all ways", upon which we are a (highly failed) model. Something so perfect failed in such a magnificent manner.

Where is God being malevolent?

Oh, boy. Where should I start?

Have you read any of Leviticus? Deuteronomy? I'm guessing not since you can't seem to find any place where God is malevolent.

Here are some selections:

EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.

EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.

NU 21:3 The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.

NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.

1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

That's pretty damned malevolent. That's just a few selections.

How does knowing the future stop one from changing the future? With complete control over both time and reality, an omnipotent being would be able to alter the course of events, thus creating a new future. It's just like writing a book - you know how you want it to end, but you can decide to make the story turn out different if you so choose.

Obviously, the reasons for Omnipotence and Omniscience being incompatible can't be resolved to your satisfaction (and within my limited reasoning skills at this point).

That's because from a religious standpoint, God is not bad. He does allow unfortunate things to happen, yes, but that's a sign of neither malice of apathy. This appears to be yet another malevolence argument, as if to say that because God would not randomly prevent a person from dying, he must hate humanity.

You watch without acting/reacting: Apathy
You are the hand that guides the universe: Malice

That can only be a sign of malice or apathy. Or, more likely, non-existence. Everything that happens, happens by his will. All death and all new life is by his direct hand. He allows, and designs, the most graceful and heroic of deaths.. along with the (more common) cruel, painful and extended deaths.

As I said earlier in this thread:

He did many EPIC miracles (parting the red sea, rising from the dead, turning water to wine, etc).

Now, the best this being can manage is his face on a piece of burnt toast. Now owned by an online casino. I guess someone got an epic paycheck.

---

Of all people who should believe in God, it would be scientists. Would they not be the ones who find the evidence to support this being?

Fully 98% of the scientific community (this isn't a made up statistic, but I'm going to bed and can't be arsed to find the cite) is against the notion that God exists.

Every day, new scientific discoveries further marginalize this being. This being has been relegated to being the "God of the Gaps".

Don't know something yet? God did it.

The ultimate cop-out.

this is out of hand, but i will be posting until its locked or whatever

thats my thery because if god created evrything what created god i asked my re teacher and he said god was always there i very much doubt it

RedishTigerOk this post is getting too big and etc. It needs to be locked...

Agreed.

look 2 attoms glided toghther makeing the explosion the big bang that created the universe and i think it created planets and maybe animals i dont know and thats my thery and im fukin 12

Smink

nukanuka

Sminki beleive in god but i also beleive in the big bang,

also the catholic church also agrees with teh big bang and evolution

i beleive in the b.b and god at the same time because i do think tehre is a higher power aka god because where did all the matter etc come from

another reason we live, or a goal we set for ourselves, find out

yeh totaly agree also i plan to hopefully become a astrophysicst when im older and take a proper uni course as i have taken the stanford university comology thing but you just watch lectures for that,

for my age which is 16 in 4 months im pretty much the only one at my schoool who loves science and is actually interesting in all aspects of science

actually I haven't seen lectures, not one in my whole life, I'm 12

I Shaid end this alrighty.

nukanuka

Sminki beleive in god but i also beleive in the big bang,

also the catholic church also agrees with teh big bang and evolution

i beleive in the b.b and god at the same time because i do think tehre is a higher power aka god because where did all the matter etc come from

another reason we live, or a goal we set for ourselves, find out

yeh totaly agree also i plan to hopefully become a astrophysicst when im older and take a proper uni course as i have taken the stanford university comology thing but you just watch lectures for that,

for my age which is 16 in 4 months im pretty much the only one at my schoool who loves science and is actually interesting in all aspects of science

also emp is elctromagnetic pulse which is when a large amount of electromagnetic radiations disables the electronic not magnets lol

yes light is part of the electromagnetic sprectrum

i beleive in god but i also beleive in the big bang,

also the catholic church also agrees with teh big bang and evolution

i beleive in the b.b and god at the same time because i do think tehre is a higher power aka god because where did all the matter etc come from

Let's just end this thread. We all have shared our opinions so let's close it before it gets out of hand.

i am personally christian.
But i dont care what other people think. they areb titled to their own opinion.
but think about this.

NOTHING cannt make something.

Something has to make something. Nothing cant just suddenly turn into something with no reason of any kind.
you can flame me but im just saying what i believe. SOMETHING MADE US.

gwinansApples and oranges. Time travel is a scientific endeavor, not a belief system. Nice try.

It's pretty obvious I wasn't comparing time travel to religion, just showing that your argument is illogical by using on a different subject.

gwinansThe problem with different interpretations of the same book come down to groups like WBC and many other anti-gay anti-pretty-much-anything literal interpretations of the bible. These passages aren't up for much interpretation.

Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." (NIV)

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV)

I agree, radical groups like these give the whole of religion a bad name. They look at a few verses and ignore the rest, like the ones about being loving and understanding toward people rather than persecuting them.

gwinansThe bible itself is pro-slavery and anti-women. That point has never been proven wrong. Christian apologetics have attempted to bury those facts, but it's hard to do when it's written as law/canon. So, why isn't everyone out killing gays and keeping slaves and ensuring women are treated as property?

To really understand these references, you have to know how things worked in those times. When most people hear the word slavery, images of lowly laborers being beaten and neglected come to mind, but the indentured servitude of Jewish law made this more akin to the relationship between a paid worker and an employee. Jesus even urged that both parties were to maintain mutual respect for one another.

The Bible is not 'anti-woman' in a chauvinistic sense. Most cultures throughout history - including the church - have not allowed women to hold positions of authority simply because it was not commonplace for them to be educated in such matter. Only in the past few centuries have women risen through the ranks in monumental numbers and become more empowered in every aspect of society.

gwinansMAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

That's just one of a few dozen contradictions. What were his last words?

You answer this question yourself by quoting three different books of the Bible. Each anecdote was written by a different man, so what they heard and which parts they found significant enough to write would have varied.

gwinansIs it? Benevolence has a very specific meaning in according with the bible. Perfectly Good. To allow evil while being perfectly good completely erases the ability to be benevolent. The God of the bible <both new and old testaments!> very rarely shows signs of being good, kind, altruistic or humane.

Show me the verses you are talking about then. Where is benevolence defined, and when is God being malevolent?

gwinansThat doesn't address the problem of Omniscience vs. Omnipotence. Neither can work together. The same conclusion is still drawn. The God of the bible is a paradoxical impossiblity.

You cannot change the future and know the future. Omniscience is out.
You cannot know the future and change the future. Omnipotence is out.

How does knowing the future stop one from changing the future? With complete control over both time and reality, an omnipotent being would be able to alter the course of events, thus creating a new future. It's just like writing a book - you know how you want it to end, but you can decide to make the story turn out different if you so choose.

gwinansYour argument that "bad things happen to good people" is the most common religious "out" that's used to describe any situation. I could describe the death of 300 people at the hands of an uncontrollable blaze. The answer? God works in mysterious ways - OR - bad things happen to good people. You'll never hear "Because God is bad". All excuses. One is complete involvement (cause of death) or complete non-involvement (existence of being doesn't matter).

That's because from a religious standpoint, God is not bad. He does allow unfortunate things to happen, yes, but that's a sign of neither malice of apathy. This appears to be yet another malevolence argument, as if to say that because God would not randomly prevent a person from dying, he must hate humanity.

OMFG i know our purpose in life!

Notch is god and we live to play minecraft.

the human race is made for minecraft and anyone that doesnt will go to hell!

everything that happens in the universe is caused by random events that coincide with scientific laws not some guy with a book.

I am atheist and don't believe in a god. I do not believe that there may be a god, but i think that in all reality there could be, i do not believe that is true, but that it could be.
If you are coming strait out and saying that god does not exist, you are wrong. If you were to say that i do not believe, or think that god exists, than you are right. If you say god exists, you are wrong. If you say god may exist, i think god exists, or i believe god exists, then you are right.

My atheist theory-My theory is that we exist for the same reason that anything else exists, to live.

My somewhat less atheist theory-My theory is that we were created to find our own individual, unique purposes. I believe that we have all already fulfilled those purposes. We call them goals.

I for one mostly favor my less atheist theory and believe that is what the answer to the question is.

~Nukanuka

Why are you all aiming this on just Christian believes and God? Remember when you believe in God your beliving in something you can't see. They say that a lot in churches and i believe in the Bible too. On another note you all think it's cruel that people die and people might blame it on God. If people didn't die the world would overpopulate of the Human race which will cause a unbalance in animals because we eat animals and the human race. It's like how spiders eat insects and they help keep the world from overpopulating of insects. Just leave Christians alone alright. I understand that you all are curious but you say you have no proof God exsist well have you showed any proof he doesn't? In my perspective we won't know. And just something else that i personally believe in but others might not. What about Demons and such? Theres been numorous stories about how people have been attacked and words from the Bible help remove those demons. Just a thought. What about that?

Bleyd@gwinans Different interpretations of a religion are all based on human reasoning and prone to error and variation because of how every individual interprets it. These don't really effect core belief systems, however. For example, Christians from different denominations will argue amongst themselves about whether baptism means full water immersion or sprinkling, but they will always agree on what the act itself represents. Based on your logic, if one person thinks time travel is possible, and another does not, is that proof time does not exist?

Apples and oranges. Time travel is a scientific endeavor, not a belief system. Nice try.

The problem with different interpretations of the same book come down to groups like WBC and many other anti-gay anti-pretty-much-anything literal interpretations of the bible.

These passages aren't up for much interpretation.

Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." (NIV)

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV)

The bible itself is pro-slavery and anti-women. That point has never been proven wrong. Christian apologetics have attempted to bury those facts, but it's hard to do when it's written as law/canon.

So, why isn't everyone out killing gays and keeping slaves and ensuring women are treated as property?

Every 'contradiction' I've ever seen has long been proven wrong. Many people still use them without even understanding the context or meaning of the passages. For example, the one where pi is supposedly calculated to be an even 3 was shown to be a misreading because of the dimensions involved (taken from the diameter of the inside of the vessel in question, rather than the outside). As you say, go look some of these things up.

MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

That's just one of a few dozen contradictions. What were his last words?

Oh, right. The bible wasn't started until some 30-40 years (or more!) after this individuals' death. There isn't even much evidence to support such a person even existed.

The lack of benevolence argument is, to be honest, just plain pathetic. It can all be boiled down to "good things happen to bad people, so there must not be a God." Our existence not being some overjoyous Disney movie with sunshine and roses doesn't prove or disprove anything. Life happens. Even from a religious point of view, man doesn't deserve anything good. He is a fallen and corrupt creature that waits only for death, and God's true benevolence comes in the form of forgiveness and a chance at redemption, not in giving out cookies during our short stint on this planet.

Is it? Benevolence has a very specific meaning in according with the bible. Perfectly Good. To allow evil while being perfectly good completely erases the ability to be benevolent.

The God of the bible <both new and old testaments!> very rarely shows signs of being good, kind, altruistic or humane.

The omnipotence paradox itself is nonsensical because it demands the creation of something that can't exist. A "nontask" like this blatantly defies logic, rendering itself meaningless. It's like asking an artist to draw a square circle.

That doesn't address the problem of Omniscience vs. Omnipotence. Neither can work together. The same conclusion is still drawn. The God of the bible is a paradoxical impossiblity.

You cannot change the future and know the future. Omniscience is out.
You cannot know the future and change the future. Omnipotence is out.

As for reason behind bad/good things happening, that too is left up to individual interpretation. Not every religious person blesses God when good things happen, or blames Him for the bad things. Finding out why we are here is the purpose of this thread, is really up to each person to decide. The meaning of life is something all people, religious or otherwise, have struggled to answer.

The vast majority, however, do thank "God" for everything good in their life. "He" is described in the bible as the hand that guides everything. This being is either completely involved or completely uninvolved.

Your argument that "bad things happen to good people" is the most common religious "out" that's used to describe any situation. I could describe the death of 300 people at the hands of an uncontrollable blaze.

The answer?

God works in mysterious ways - OR - bad things happen to good people.

You'll never hear "Because God is bad". All excuses.

One is complete involvement (cause of death) or complete non-involvement (existence of being doesn't matter).

@gwinans Different interpretations of a religion are all based on human reasoning and prone to error and variation because of how every individual interprets it. These don't really effect core belief systems, however. For example, Christians from different denominations will argue amongst themselves about whether baptism means full water immersion or sprinkling, but they will always agree on what the act itself represents. Based on your logic, if one person thinks time travel is possible, and another does not, is that proof time does not exist?

Every 'contradiction' I've ever seen has long been proven wrong. Many people still use them without even understanding the context or meaning of the passages. For example, the one where pi is supposedly calculated to be an even 3 was shown to be a misreading because of the dimensions involved (taken from the diameter of the inside of the vessel in question, rather than the outside). As you say, go look some of these things up.

The lack of benevolence argument is, to be honest, just plain pathetic. It can all be boiled down to "good things happen to bad people, so there must not be a God." Our existence not being some overjoyous Disney movie with sunshine and roses doesn't prove or disprove anything. Life happens. Even from a religious point of view, man doesn't deserve anything good. He is a fallen and corrupt creature that waits only for death, and God's true benevolence comes in the form of forgiveness and a chance at redemption, not in giving out cookies during our short stint on this planet.

The omnipotence paradox itself is nonsensical because it demands the creation of something that can't exist. A "nontask" like this blatantly defies logic, rendering itself meaningless. It's like asking an artist to draw a square circle.

As for reason behind bad/good things happening, that too is left up to individual interpretation. Not every religious person blesses God when good things happen, or blames Him for the bad things. Finding out why we are here is the purpose of this thread, is really up to each person to decide. The meaning of life is something all people, religious or otherwise, have struggled to answer.

Everyone has there own religion and there own gods and i cant say that god is the one you must believe in im just asking what proof does science have of our exsistence and our lives. im not saying that god is the one everyone should have to believe in. everyone has there own versions of him in there own religion. People believe in different gods and live by different lifestyles like as you said 'rituals' that they do because THEY believe in it

I think he did it to have us develop and learn new things and technology etc. to help him or something

Regardless of what you believe (I'm a plasma-theory guy myself, Big Bang is old-school), we exist to either discover or create a reason for our existence.

I have decided that my purpose is to enjoy the experiences I can, to forgive and forget the ones I cannot, and to procreate so that I may teach my offspring the same.

[quote="TheAsterite"][b]I MEAN Whats our purpose in life?[b] Or our PURPOELSE, Purpose. Gods amusement? An accident by the big bang? Or whatever? I just feel soo... So small and lost...

*goes and cries to sleep in a dark corner thinking such sad thoughts*
*WAIL* *CRY*[/quote]


Why do you need a purpose?

The only "purpose" one could propose is: Procreation.

That is the only biological purpose of a person.

Live your life, have fun, be good.

Problem? Then go back to feeling small and lost. In the scope of things, you are in fact, quite small. Lost? That's your problem. Deal with it.