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height limit, breakable?

1 emerald63 replies7,403 views
created 12/29/2012 8:33 pm by Pirate_Ray
last reply 07/02/2013 4:26 pm
only start reading if you like to read long long pieces of text:


well to start off, i'm starting a discussion on breaking the height limit, it has already gone from 128 to 256 and seeing how bits work the logical step seems 512 right?

well no, i would love to see an infinite world that is really infinite and not just horizontal... and theoretically it could be done easily(well actually not that easily ) to, just needs some coding.

generating higher worlds could be like the horizontal generation but then also vertically, the only thing that needs to be done is instead of extending the current chunks, chop them in pieces and stack them:

currently chunks are rectangular blocks of 16x16x256 loaded next to each other in a certain cylindrical area around you which makes it possible to go infinite horizontally since not all chunks are loading, loaded and kept loaded at the same time, if you make these chunks for lets say 16x16x16, or 16x16x32, or 16x16x64 and stack em on top of each other both downwards as upwards, you could go infinitely vertically as well as horizontally, chunks get smaller but more numerous but since currently your pc only loads a certain amount of chunks around you, the load wouldn't be different.

but instead of a cylindrical loaded area of chunks sized 16x16x256 you would have a smaller spherical or square(whichever one is easiest to compute/code) chunks loaded area sized 16x16x16/32/64 around you.

your computer keeps the same load on it as it is now just the saves would get bigger since every chunk square you go down/up would add a bit of extra info, same goes for horizontal as it is now, on top of that most chunks aren't even that memory intensive unless a player starts doing funky stuff on it.

world generation could be like(imagine the middle of the world being 0, or whats currently 64) at 0, level generation is as it is now normal land, going from 0 to +x just adds chunks filled with air, after a certain amount of upward chunks, say 30 you could have a new generation of landscape... sky-lands.... same goes for going down... after traveling -x from 0 lets also say about 30 chunks you could have the generator change from regular land to nether generation, this would also solve having to build portals to a separate world file... portals would still be used as they are used now, just in one single world (somewhat like the ancient-gates plugin for bukkit but without putting in codes)

is this really this hard to code(just asking)?
step 1: splitting chunks to easy manageable pieces/chunks (not that hard)
step 2a: stacking them on top of each other when/while going up (not that hard)
step 2b: altering the world saving method so it memorizes up-going vertical chunk locations together with horizontal locations. (hard)
step 3a: stacking them underneath of each other when/while going down (not that hard)
step 3b: altering the world saving method so it memorizes down-going vertical chunk locations together with horizontal locations. (hard)
step 4: adjust the world generation to generate different types of biomes at certain heights(example):


space.... aka void layer... aka air blocks which will kill you since void is not possible...
the layers where the end world is located... enderman and their little moon
air layers ... nothing here but air.
sky-dwelling islands... aka sky-land as notch's first attempt at it.
air layers ... nothing here but air.
normal land generating layers...
some more normal underground land generating layers, with gigantic caves perhaps.
even more digging layers....
nether generating layers....
lava generating layers to simulate a planet core which will kill you.

in principle a player could set max depth and max height and at those heights/depth you either find lava or killing void to end going up or down its up to the player to decide the altitude....

to help visualize (made it myself right click and press view image for full view... since it doesn't scale the image :/ )

inspiration needed? cubic chunks mod and mineup... outdated but very interesting




i hope someone understands this , it requires a rewrite of the world generation, detection and saving methods and thats it. (no i'm not a coder but i do know how stuff works... just cant code it ) i hope this brings someone to thought.

EDIT:

idea from: Xistence
flag empty or solely air (perhaps water to?) filled chunks for a decreased load, only to be loaded when a player enters the chunk.

idea from: Randomness3333
underworld to nether border: add an extra layer off obsidian in between to prevent to easy access, must blend in as though if it were natural so not a completely solid x thick plaque.

idea from... me:
6 stage world generation being nether, underworld, over-world, sky-lands, empty air and end. seamlessly integrating into each other at border areas (just a random blend of both generators) allowing for more precise, good looking and stable world generation.
Posted by avatar
Pirate_Ray
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
20

63 replies

1
07/02/2013 4:26 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
jseyfert3
Insane amount of blocks indeed, because you didn't realize you typed that into your calculator wrong. If you go from a chunk height of 256 to 512 with the same base area (16x16), then you have twice the number of blocks, just like when you go from a height of 128 to 256. A chunk with a 16 x 16 base and 512 blocks high would be 131,072 blocks, not 67,108,864!

P.S. The main reason I want higher heights would be an epic automatically generated mountain terrain.

P.P.S. 512 x 512 x 16 x 16 = 67,108,864. And since 512 x 512 is a 262,144 blocks, you just gave the number of blocks in a 262,144 x 16 x 16 chunk by accident. That's one tall chunk!


thanks for noticing. x512 to many ... whoops im just a human XD. though thanks for the support.

as for that tall chunk, now that could be some EPIC terrain generation.... with moons perhaps? :3
1
07/01/2013 1:07 pm
Level 1 : New Miner
jseyfert3
avatar
Pirate_Ray
Gorillaz_101Or just use MCedit since if this was added the infinity height limit will be chunks and make Minecraft a little more laggy (kind of)


well, why would it make you more laggy? you arent loading more blocks then you are now, the only reason minecraft cannot have a higher limit with the current system is calculate with me:

128x16x16= 32768 blocks to be loaded per chunk
256x16x16= 65536 blocks to be loaded per chunk
next step in bits would be 512...
512x16x16= 67108864 blocks to be loaded per chunk

add to this a radius of x chunks in a circle around you and you would have your loaded chunks area.... insane amount of blocks indeed.

Insane amount of blocks indeed, because you didn't realize you typed that into your calculator wrong. If you go from a chunk height of 256 to 512 with the same base area (16x16), then you have twice the number of blocks, just like when you go from a height of 128 to 256. A chunk with a 16 x 16 base and 512 blocks high would be 131,072 blocks, not 67,108,864!

P.S. The main reason I want higher heights would be an epic automatically generated mountain terrain.

P.P.S. 512 x 512 x 16 x 16 = 67,108,864. And since 512 x 512 is a 262,144 blocks, you just gave the number of blocks in a 262,144 x 16 x 16 chunk by accident. That's one tall chunk!
1
01/08/2013 4:30 am
Level 38 : Artisan Vampire
+Sheena+
avatar
No.
1
01/08/2013 4:28 am
Level 82 : Elite Scapegoat
Paril
avatar
I don't think you understand my remark exactly.

Block data sent to clients, for instance, is encoded in a special way so that it can send small amounts of data. Keep in mind that engines try to use shortcuts by cutting down data or encoding it in special ways (for instance, any chunk is 16x16x256 - you can encode this perfectly into an unsigned short, a 16 bit integer, by using the first byte for x z, and second byte for y). Allowing Y to be limitless pretty much wouldn't allow this optimization to take place.

Since MCEdit is a third party program it shouldn't be taken into account here. It's up to the maintainer of that program to keep up to date (if this was ever to happen) - it wouldn't affect the implementation of this sort of feature.

Size constraints can easily be overcome by just getting a bigger hard drive or whatever, but it will still drastically affect the size of existing worlds. As I said, it could easily quadruple the size just because chunks would now have to be sliced on the Y plane and can no longer easily slip into a byte (hence the "magic" 256 number - it's the upper limit of an unsigned byte). You could do optimizations to surpass this and make it bearable, but it would likely be at the expense of speed.

http://www.wiki.vg/Protocol#0x38 looking at some of these packets might reveal a bit more information about why/how this is done. There's a very specific reason why the number 256 (or 128 for the older map version) was chosen and why it can't be increased in vanilla gameplay, only decreased.

-P
1
01/08/2013 4:07 am
Level 19 : Journeyman Dragon
EliteTNTGaming
avatar
You could dig down to get a larger space...
1
01/08/2013 4:04 am
Level 45 : Master Modder
Gnomorian
avatar
This mod is not needed, you can already break the height limit to what you want, if you install world edit on a server you can paste anything above the height limit, so like most buildings (example) are built in sections, paste sections on top of each other above the limit and there u are
1
01/08/2013 4:06 am
Level 45 : Master Modder
Gnomorian
avatar
plus i beleave there is already a height limit mod that can extend to 2000 blocks (makes realy big mountains and realy long lag spikes)
1
01/08/2013 5:41 am
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
also if there was no need to get higher, why do a lot of modders and mods aim to go higher, why do lots of builders want to make it higher, why are there so many height adding and changing mods then?

plus you are only extending chunks from 256 to 2000 that way, increasing lag and data sent to clients, not an improvement id say, just a temporary substitute at most.

EliteTNTGamingYou could dig down to get a larger space...


you cant dig down in an empty world made of 256 high space for example.
you can when 256 is sufficient enough for you but this mod is not just altering height, it aims for smaller and better chunk handling in general to relieve (or increase if wanted) the load to suit the pc of the user more.

ParilI don't think you understand my remark exactly.

Block data sent to clients, for instance, is encoded in a special way so that it can send small amounts of data. Keep in mind that engines try to use shortcuts by cutting down data or encoding it in special ways (for instance, any chunk is 16x16x256 - you can encode this perfectly into an unsigned short, a 16 bit integer, by using the first byte for x z, and second byte for y). Allowing Y to be limitless pretty much wouldn't allow this optimization to take place.

Since MCEdit is a third party program it shouldn't be taken into account here. It's up to the maintainer of that program to keep up to date (if this was ever to happen) - it wouldn't affect the implementation of this sort of feature.

Size constraints can easily be overcome by just getting a bigger hard drive or whatever, but it will still drastically affect the size of existing worlds. As I said, it could easily quadruple the size just because chunks would now have to be sliced on the Y plane and can no longer easily slip into a byte (hence the "magic" 256 number - it's the upper limit of an unsigned byte). You could do optimizations to surpass this and make it bearable, but it would likely be at the expense of speed.

http://www.wiki.vg/Protocol#0x38 looking at some of these packets might reveal a bit more information about why/how this is done. There's a very specific reason why the number 256 (or 128 for the older map version) was chosen and why it can't be increased in vanilla gameplay, only decreased.

-P


i understand your remark perfectly, but what you say is incorrect, block data is encoded in a special way, agreed, currently it is encoded in such a way to handle 256 high chunks with ease, this can also be done with 16 high chunk or 32 or 64 etc, you said integer 16 sure... it requires a small rewrite and change of this stuff don't bother me with that i'm not a coder. i however do understand that when you make the chunks smaller you will send less data per package, 16x16x16 is a lot less data overll then 16x16x256, and agreed that the amount of packages will increase but there are shortcuts to that to (like flags).

as for MCedit, it was just an example of a world handler, no need to spill words over that.

existing worlds will not be affected that much, sure your adding the y to [x] high but you only add data of where you've actually been, i calculated wrong myself, sure the worlds would be a bit bigger, but it would just be the data of the end, the nether, and the overworld combined plus a certain part extra of the added y height, which wouldn't be that much unless you go and explore every square block there is and build in every chunk, this since "empty" or "stock" chunks could just be flagged as relieving data size.

you are also talking of a method of saving which is currently used, for this new world format a new system has not to be optimized as was the case with 128 to 256, but a new system, like going from 32 bit to 64 bit OS (eventually we will go to a 128 bit and up type Os/pc due new development).

also you say it cant be increased only decreased, pray tell me why has this happened before then, the mod i am speaking of is currently dead... i think... but it did the same as what i am speaking of, but then overworld only. i gave a link in the OP to several of these mods.

it can be done with ease it just needs hell of a lot of optimization.

ps, throw any packet information link at me that you want i understand to little code to actually understand it to the fullest, i do however know how logic that is supposed to work.

ah well.. there will always be people that complain or have something to counter an idea with.
just wish i wasn't the only one fighting/arguing here...

+Sheena+No.


Yes.


Whoever01No, 256 is a great build height. You will never need to go any higher. Anyway, any higher and the game will lag like hell no matter what the chink generation is. At least there could be more generated structures in the air. And by the way, you can build on 257 with water and lava.
-Who


actual limit stays 256, with water 257, 1 block makes no difference especially when that one black is a single block and not an entire new layer.

also if there was no need to get higher, why do a lot of mod try to go higher, why do lots of builders want to make it higher, why are there so many height adding and changing mods then?
1
01/08/2013 2:52 am
Level 45 : Master Princess
Whoever01
avatar
No, 256 is a great build height. You will never need to go any higher. Anyway, any higher and the game will lag like hell no matter what the chink generation is. At least there could be more generated structures in the air. And by the way, you can build on 257 with water and lava.
-Who
1
01/07/2013 2:01 pm
Level 33 : Artisan Grump
tex12347
avatar
I like it support
1
01/07/2013 1:49 pm
Level 38 : Artisan Artist
Artbot
avatar
Well there's already that wasted 128 blocks above the generated world in the Nether. They should work on improving what they currently have instead of adding new things that would just break it.
1
01/07/2013 2:12 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
instead of trying to fix whats broken, needs additions or improve, recreate it as described here and make a good generator to not have any waste at all. they have the experience, the recources are there to use, and they are busy rewriting anyway....
1
01/07/2013 1:31 pm
Level 22 : Expert Engineer
rock1234rock1234
avatar
great idea if this become popular and you can make it mod jeb might add it to the game .
1
01/07/2013 1:42 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
to bad for me i am not a modder but the idea might very well be implemended someday. or at least i hope.
1
01/07/2013 1:15 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
minerat27
you could go infinitely horizontally as well as vertically

shoundn't this be vertically as well as horizontally?
(this is 4th para 2nd to last line)


good find, i shall change it, thank you.


ParilMaps would be too big to be maintain. Chunks are written in a way so that the positional data can be pushed into an unsigned short; you'd essentially be quadrupling, if not more, the size of region files if it also had to account for a "limitless y".

It's certainly not impossible, just not exactly good for space.

-P


i agree on maps being larger in size but that would be a normal expectation when you make it unlimited in size, the size it then can be is only the size your harddrive eventually can maintain, though you'd be able to reach that goal right now to since horizontal axis is unlimited as we speak.

as for maintaining? yes it can be pushed into a wacky mess, same goes for the current world now by just renaming chunk files, same then, but with a more ridiculous outcome....

unmaintainable... no, just need a better version of mcedit then capable of handling the worldfile, as with converting from old format to the current anvil format.
1
01/07/2013 1:07 pm
Level 82 : Elite Scapegoat
Paril
avatar
Maps would be too big to be maintain. Chunks are written in a way so that the positional data can be pushed into an unsigned short; you'd essentially be quadrupling, if not more, the size of region files if it also had to account for a "limitless y".

It's certainly not impossible, just not exactly good for space.

-P
1
01/07/2013 12:57 pm
Level 16 : Journeyman Hunter
minerat27
avatar
you could go infinitely horizontally as well as vertically

shoundn't this be vertically as well as horizontally?
(this is 4th para 2nd to last line)
1
01/07/2013 11:42 am
Level 32 : Artisan Button Pusher
Mercer
avatar
If you had an old computer (Ive got a windows 7 so Im fast-ish) Then your minecraft would take to long.
WAY TO LONG
to load.
1
01/07/2013 12:44 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
please read the previous statements about this, multiple scenarios have been discussed and rejected. please read before you post.

also if you still run a XP or earlier then you shouldnt play this game at all, vista can get ugly but is maintainable and windows 7/8....
it all depends on your pc specifications in the end, not the operating system however.
1
01/07/2013 11:39 am
Level 12 : Journeyman Engineer
incomtart
avatar
No. Just No. This would lag the game TOO much. If the world was to ever be turned to 512, I would never update (unless there was redstone, ). The only way I would like this to happen if the 256 --> 512 part was a different world, so you there were two parts. A bit like Multiverse, so you can have higher worlds.

EDIT: Just a terrible idea. If you need to make the worlds taller, use Multiverse. If you don't have Bukkit, well, do what you do normally.
1
01/06/2013 11:07 am
Level 1 : New Miner
GhostWyrd
avatar
I think this is fantastic. I'm not keen on blending dimensions together; I rather like them discrete and segregated.

Who hasn't fantasized at least once in recreating the place in which they live or another favorite location? There are some people that continue to work on a process that builds a minecraft world from actual geological maps. I can't emphasize how exciting I find that prospect, but it's so limited by world-height limitations. You must imagine how frustrating that is to someone that lives in an area so rich in geological diversity and features. I live an hour from the ocean (sea level) and an hour from a 4400m mountain.

Clearly, well over the 256 block limit, even before considering anything UNDER ground. And I definitely want to dig underground; it is MINEcraft, after all. I truly hope this idea develops into something functional. I can't wait!
1
01/07/2013 11:18 am
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
i hope to, that someday this idea will be become reality, thanks
1
01/01/2013 5:17 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
just came up with this:

6 stage world generation being nether, underworld, overworld, skylands, empty air and end. seamlessly integrating into each other at border areas (just a random blend of both generators) allowing for more precise, good looking and stable world generation.

to improve stability of world generation, a single world generator would screw up to much i think due complexities while smaller specialized ones combined can make beautiful results..
1
12/31/2012 5:23 pm
Level 33 : Artisan Grump
tex12347
avatar
Pirate_Ray
tex12347there would be no lag want too know why? I was one this server and there was a plug in so you could ride anything so there was this guy with the fly hack (nobody really cared) then I got a saddle and rid on him and we went higher then mount Everest and no lag



1st of all, please check your spelling.
the saddle plugin.... :| as for no lag, after the height of 256 and way up, there are no chunks generated and way up high there are no chunks active therefore nothing has to be loaded the only reason you could stay alive there is because there is no need for a killing box since there is no particular reason to go beyond 256 as you cant build or do anything there since its empty.

1. I know I have bad spelling 2. yeah it was confused about the saddle plug in to xD
3. I just wanted to go high :D
1
12/31/2012 5:21 pm
Level 33 : Artisan Grump
tex12347
avatar
I did read all of it...
1
12/31/2012 5:18 pm
Level 7 : Apprentice Pokemon
Lax_People
avatar
I dare someone to read all of this...
1
12/31/2012 5:49 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
well, multiple people read this . try it to, understanding it though is a different world altogether XD

tex12347 snip
1. I know I have bad spelling 2. yeah it was confused about the saddle plug in to xD
3. I just wanted to go high


sorry for picking on spelling, confusion?, you read all of it no wonder .

as for going high... who doesnt want to go as high as possible, and then skydive to death for fun only to try land in water basin of 2x2x4 placed somewhere way down below
1
12/31/2012 5:12 pm
Level 4 : Apprentice Artist
PinkCrayon
avatar
,,, Wut? You lost me XD
1
12/31/2012 4:39 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
i noticed the mineideas contest... also noticed i should have written this down way earlier as maybe more people would have seen this , ah well maybe next time.
1
12/31/2012 5:33 am
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
_DioM_

Maybe so.

Oh, and I did notice you completely overhauled your original post to make the above fit.


its an idea, not something set in stone, plus adaption and refining and progressing of an idea is called development.
also i didnt overhaul it.... not at all, i just removed a sloppy picture and replaced it for a picture which i created myself to explain stuff with a visual help. (although it shows awkward)
plus i added 2 3rd party ideas to the original post which are quite nice.

_DioM_
BUT BUT BUT. Have you ever climbed a massive tower and looked down? What do you see? The edges of the map. The unrendered parts. Keep in mind, this is on the far render. Sure,you could install optifine and use the extreme render. But that only provides a temporary fix. If the skybox did not exist, you'd still end up seeing the corners of the map. It would just take a bit longer to get high enough. And I'm ignoring the fact that many systems simply can not take the load that extreme creates.

stop the butting and start thinking ya troll...
the reason there exists such a slider to go from tiny to far is to adjust the load to fit your specific pc so more pc's in a slow range category can run it, optifine only increases that range category enabling more pc's to run the game.


_DioM_
Anyways, back to looking down? You see the edge of the map, but you keep going higher. Eventually, the ground below turns into a four inch, pixelated square. Also, you're able to see the sun and moon at the same time.

I know Minecraft is divorced from reality, for the most part, but seeing both the sun and moon, at the same time and about 180 degrees from each other? Even that's a bit much.


if you go that high in the current game and can see that far that the ground becomes a pixelated square then you went to high. there is also a thing called distance fog which prevents you from seeing the land below you so you do not see ugly edges.
also in the current game mechanics arent calculating anything above the 256 limit, therefore if you get to say 1500 high, there is no calculation of what the game should show you.

_DioM_
If you were ale to get to work anyways, it would still take a lot of doing to patch everything and make it slightly believable. Such patches, possibly being bigger, thicker clouds you can't see under. But if that was the case, why bother rendering the ground in the first case? Why not make it so once you get to a certain height, you're transferred to pretty much another dimention that'll somehow allow you to connect to regular, overworld structures? Think: the bases of towers. Sure, it'd take a bit of creativity. But I'm quite certain it's possible.


as i told xcistance, first implemend the world features, then refine and tweak., as for bigger clouds and the previous part i quoted, if you get for example 1500 high, currently you see nothing, in my version youd be in calculated area, maybe youd see clouds below you, islands above you, and below those clouds a fakish planet image to block that 180* degree sun/moon but thats all extras to be patched and tweaked.

first the world, then the atmosphere, because there simply is none besides air blocks and a cloud entity texture floating...., and at last the extra stuff as ruins & npc whatever.

also your talking dimensions, i thought about the idea, take the eather for example, perfectly merges sky and another realm above it without a loading screen, but only when going down with a parachute (or not ), and it doesnt allow you to build above 256 high or into the other realm, it cant but only support entity's traveling through, thats the setup. it could be possible what you are saying, not very handy; example, what if you have redstone active above and below, its two seperate worlds, sure, the nether allows it via portals, but it aint perfect and calculating what happens in 2 worlds requires more load capacity then what happens in 1 single world.


_DioM_
Although I do admit, your argue your point well, and I think stackable chunks could end up proving useful.



thank you, i try to argue with people to convince them, seems i am doing a nice job.
though i could do better if i knew more of the details of both programming and the game mechanics.

_DioM_
But as I said, to create your mod and make everything clean-like, it may take a lot of doing.


it may? IT MAY?!? its a hell of a lot of work fine sir...... and i really wish i could do it, but i can only come up with ideas to refine and develop it.

coding might not be that spectacular, hell there are already bases for a fine start out there just by taking and recreating from old outdated mods....
but the horror of tweaking it to something nice, bright and shiny requires the most skill, and id love to help in that as best as i can.

then the adding of new additions like extra's begins which isnt that mind boggling since they are doing pretty much that with the current game.... (although i have high hopes for the next rendering engine of 1.5)
1
12/30/2012 10:00 pm
Level 26 : Expert Scribe
_DioM_
avatar
Pirate_Ray
+Sheena+Made me think of Terraria. xD


lol, i guess your pointing at the image

_DioM_BUT air blocks are much, much quicker to load than other types.

Ever played on a flatmap?

Ever flew into a sky city, far about the ground?

Ever been in a laggy, crowded area and looked p to the sky?

Did you notice an FPS increase? You should've, because your system was loading less solid blocks.


true, but have you ever calculated the volume of a cylinder (current chunk loading system) and a sphere (my suggestion)? a sphere of 100 in diameter has less volume then a cylinder of 100 in diameter. you would be loading less blocks in total if you implemented these smaller stackable chunks. (edit: assume a common 256 height for calculation)

your turn.


Maybe so.

Oh, and I did notice you completely overhauled your original post to make the above fit.

BUT BUT BUT. Have you ever climbed a massive tower and looked down? What do you see? The edges of the map. The unrendered parts. Keep in mind, this is on the far render. Sure,you could install optifine and use the extreme render. But that only provides a temporary fix. If the skybox did not exist, you'd still end up seeing the corners of the map. It would just take a bit longer to get high enough. And I'm ignoring the fact that many systems simply can not take the load that extreme creates.
Anyways, back to looking down? You see the edge of the map, but you keep going higher. Eventually, the ground below turns into a four inch, pixelated square. Also, you're able to see the sun and moon at the same time.

I know Minecraft is divorced from reality, for the most part, but seeing both the sun and moon, at the same time and about 180 degrees from each other? Even that's a bit much.

If you were ale to get to work anyways, it would still take a lot of doing to patch everything and make it slightly believable. Such patches, possibly being bigger, thicker clouds you can't see under. But if that was the case, why bother rendering the ground in the first case? Why not make it so once you get to a certain height, you're transferred to pretty much another dimention that'll somehow allow you to connect to regular, overworld structures? Think: the bases of towers. Sure, it'd take a bit of creativity. But I'm quite certain it's possible.

Although I do admit, your argue your point well, and I think stackable chunks could end up proving useful.

But as I said, to create your mod and make everything clean-like, it may take a lot of doing.
1
12/30/2012 3:59 pm
Level 33 : Artisan Mage
xXCookieCrusherXx
avatar
i'm not sure about this but..if u really wanted to play on a infinite world height map, couldn't u just make urself a server world instead of a singleplayer one and when u are in server.propierties , i think there is an option for max build height, which is at 256, couldn't u just change that to 9999 or something?
NOTE : Untested
1
12/30/2012 4:54 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
that is a possibillity, but err.. you would be just increasing the chunk height from 256 to x increasing the amount of blocks that would be loaded at the same time, if youd have a immense structure inside them.... good luck.... with 1 a 2 frames per second....

having stackable chunks allows you to have less blocks loaded at the same time.
nice try though
1
12/30/2012 3:45 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
Xistence
snip


so the code isnt that spectacular? hmmm wish i could do it.... but i have to agree, on mojangs end it seems like they are slacking of a bit as what you said, it takes them months for what spare time modders do in a week or 2. but that aside. (no offense intended)

if this gets implemended which i assumed isnt that hard, the tweaking begins (probably the thing mojang looks up to and often the hardest thing to do).

as you said optifine must be implemented for better settings and tweaking for pc's , it currently enables players to specifically adjust chunk load and rendering for players, when this gets up someday there is now way around optifine since it is to usable not to use it.... sometime in the future it eventually will find its way in anyway though.... so that aside.

spawnrates have to be tweaked as you say , but they are already messy, get em altitude specific like x percentage more spawns at x height and x light lvl. not that hard as well, just leave it be atm, you are also talking about additional things as relics, temples, ruins and whatnot... put it aside at once please, first get this world done, after this is done then talk about ruins, enormous underground cave biomes and alike.... to fill the world we just created.

first the world.... then the details to be in that world.
1
12/30/2012 3:08 pm
Level 8 : Apprentice Toast
Xistence
avatar
Oh it did huh? Lucky, as I submitted, everything went down, so on the redirect it pulled the "maintenance" screen, so I didn't expect it to get the data, Nice, but yeah I'll reply here from now on, because the forums are more public, bumping this post is good, and honestly, I stop by the forum maybe once every 3 months, so I take my time when I do . And yeah the flagging deal has been an idea from long ago, back in the day the sky limit was so short, and everyone wanted a better system, although as we all know, mojang has yet to actually put effort into much after release, I mean it takes them months to implement things in, that it takes modders (aka amateur coders), that code in their spare time, to actually implement in 3 hours. I mean, how long did it take them to tweak the terrain gen to support 256? months of work on end, it took a few amateur coders in 2 weeks to do the same but doubled. The base game of minecraft was genius inside itself, but the lack of work they are putting in now is neglectful of a powerful creative engine. But back on topic, the code for this actually wouldn't be spectacular at all, I mean, if you take a look at terrain gen code, and chunk code, it isn't very complex, the only thing I see posing a major problem is tweaking the size to be completely editable, maybe hooking in with plugins like, let's say... Optifine, and it's ability to add chunks to render, in and out, from extreme to tiny, in a bar, more or less to help those who need to balance the amount of chunks rendered themselves, aswell as possibly adding a dynamic way of mob spawning, because vertically this would influence cave mobs heavily, it would take much longer to have anything to attack due to the unusual spawning, essentially making mining easier than it already is. I think a proximity/vision spawning system could be put in place. By that I mean as close as possible, that can't be seen directly by players (unless above sea level). Aswell as I think there should be more structures generated into the world, like skylands, sky temples, more ruins, sky NPC villages, underwater relics, underwater ruins, more dungeon types, etc.
1
12/30/2012 2:37 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
Xistence

snip



i replied at the blog, yours got through, i added your idea for flagging chunks. thank you.
1
12/30/2012 2:34 pm
Level 8 : Apprentice Toast
Xistence
avatar
Well apparently the site itself is down, so I'll post the comment I was posting on the blog here ~~~ This is actually been an idea for quite a while, along many mod developers, and average players alike. One such mod (far outdated now) had actually changed the chunk system to be almost like this, I believe you sited it in the forum post, so I won't go into detail on that, but if I remember correctly, it needed not much, but a bit more RAM due to the shear number of chunks being loaded, (because number counts almost as much in size) due to the fact that different things are processed at different times, because multitasking small bits of data by the hundreds back in the day, was just a dream, some of the older computer users in minecraft (the ones that have the lowest settings possible and receive still under 30 FPS) couldn't even use that mod, due to the fact it needed to load hundreds of tiny chunks, instead of dozens of large ones. Although, this idea is a common one, the way you went about it was nice, seems a bit more rounded than the old mod. I think it'd be a welcomed advancement in minecraft if some good modders come together and bring it altogether. Although it would be highly incompatible with any terrain mods, due to it having to definitely edit base classes, I think this would be great. I could also see this effecting mob spawning slightly, horizonatally wouldn't change, but vertically ehhh. Could be iffy.

Edit: Oh also, maybe a chunk flagging system, that if the chunk is filled with nothing but air, it has a "Blank" flag, and therefore the client has no need to load that chunk, reducing load slightly, and it would look as it is just air anyway, and when within a chunk of that chunk, or if the flag changes, or if any chunks near it are ticked, let it be loaded aswell, (to accommodate airship mods and such, where blocks/entities are flying about, and require the chunk to be loaded before the player arrives).
1
12/30/2012 2:18 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
MamiyaOtaruthis mod exists: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/310298-100robintons-mods/#CubicChunks. It hasn't been updated in a while (thanks no modding API and Mojang not being interested in improving their game) but it did pretty much exactly what you described. Near infinite height, chunks stored/loaded as cubes.

Performance was fine (It was actually faster than vanilla on regular height worlds) and one didn't need to have the whole vertical stack of a chunk loaded.

Mojang looked at it, decided they didn't need it (boo) and it died. They are bad at figuring out things that would be an improvement for Minecraft


i did link to a forum post that has all kind of these mods, (click the spoiler)the reason mojang didnt need it back then was there was no real demand for it, also computing back then was a little worse then it was now, so even if they implemended it a lot of people would have suffered since the code structure back then would have killed itself in an attempt to compute.
but since as good as everyone nowadays runs pcs with at least a dual/quad core pc with 2 or 2+ GB of ram (cheapest pc to get atm in my region). it is a possible and interesting feature to look after.

also with the new 1.5 rendering engine pcs without before specified specs cant handle the game anyways... makes it even more atractive to implemend this since old granny pc's are eliminated for suggestion of being capable of running the game.
1
12/30/2012 2:04 pm
Level 96 : Overlord Programmer
MamiyaOtaru
avatar
this mod exists: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/310298-100robintons-mods/#CubicChunks. It hasn't been updated in a while (thanks no modding API and Mojang not being interested in improving their game) but it did pretty much exactly what you described. Near infinite height, chunks stored/loaded as cubes.

Performance was fine (It was actually faster than vanilla on regular height worlds) as one didn't need to have the whole vertical stack of a chunk loaded.

Mojang looked at it, decided they didn't need it (boo) and it died. They are bad at figuring out things that would be an improvement for Minecraft
1
12/30/2012 2:03 pm
Level 33 : Artisan Grump
tex12347
avatar
there would be no lag want too know why? I was one this server and there was a plug in so you could ride anything so there was this guy with the fly hack (nobody really cared) then I got a saddle and rid on him and we went higher then mount Everest and no lag
1
12/30/2012 2:11 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
1st of all, please check your spelling.
the saddle plugin.... as for no lag, after the height of 256 and way up, there are no chunks generated and way up high there are no chunks active therefore nothing has to be loaded the only reason you could stay alive there is because there is no need for a killing box since there is no particular reason to go beyond 256 as you cant build or do anything there since its empty.
1
12/30/2012 1:56 pm
Level 33 : Artisan Grump
tex12347
avatar
I like it but it would MAKE tons of lag
1
12/30/2012 1:58 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
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read my previous posts please, if you understand you will understand extra lag is neglectable to a point of none.
1
12/30/2012 1:52 pm
Level 75 : Legendary Princess
Raymancaster
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blah blah blah thats all i read
1
12/30/2012 1:55 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
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obvious troll is obvious thanks for the bump
1
12/30/2012 12:46 pm
Level 26 : Expert Princess
Randomness3333
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I like the idea of having a large obsidian layer separating the regular world and the survival one but what if when you dig through you fall into lava? That would suck. I think that you should tweet this to Jeb and post it on the minecraft reddit.
1
12/30/2012 1:18 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
do what and post it where .... lol

as for falling in lava when digging, if you are unaware of change in rock you are digging i would only point and laugh, always bring ladders and never ever dig straight down
1
12/30/2012 12:02 pm
Level 26 : Expert Princess
Randomness3333
avatar
Wow this is one of the best ideas i have ever seen. It is very detailed. I am a little confused by the nether chunk generating once you go down enough. Portals are meant to force the player to get obsidian before going to the nether. What I would add to this idea is that sea level be changed to 0. Once you go down a certain amount you get a lava lake with bed rock under it. Have the sky go up to at least 1048 blocks maybe even 2096 blocks With these heights real mountains can be generated. I think that the mob spawnage would have to be decreased as yo go up to make really height sky mob farms less profitable.
1
12/30/2012 12:12 pm
Level 28 : Expert Dragon
Pirate_Ray
avatar
you could still force a player to get obsidian to go to the nether by making the seperation layer of nether // underworld, out of such a thick layer of obsidian you'd want to make a portal to go there easily, you'd do that anyway since traveling all the way down everytime gets annoying at some point to...
plus portals are here for easy travel and also currently there as a bridge to be able to go to the nether at all, you get forced due there is no other way around it.....

sea lvl would be 0 in this version of chunk generation....

and sky going up/ ground going as deep as....is all your choice.... by world option settings.... (insert sky world height here... end world height there and nether depth here.... space in between just gets filled with air/underworld)

and yes real mouintains would be possible... mob spawnage would have to be tweaked.... so many possibillitys by then
1
12/30/2012 11:34 am
Level 38 : Artisan Modder
tankerkiller125
avatar
i hope someone understands this , it requires a rewrite of the world generation, detection and saving methods and thats it. (no im not a coder but i do know how stuff works... just cant code it ) i hope this brings someone to thought.
It acctully isn't that hard to make the world taller truthfully it just reqwires a change in a few numbers in the code. However mojang is going to implement a new rendering engine to the game in 1.5 that will increase performance for everybody. (part of the reason powerpc's and old computers won't be able to run it any more)

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