forum Forumsplay_arrow Minecraft fiber_manual_record Discussion

3

Minecraft Java vs bedrock edition

3 emeralds15 replies198 views
created 11/25/2018 1:57 pm by AGTRigorMortis
last reply 12/09/2018 11:53 pm

Let us go over this one more time.

I'll let people decide on this one
but let's be honest and admit that bedrock edition has advantages over the Java version which cannot be denied.
Java version was good for the time when C++ version of the game wasn't available on Windows and it does have a very substantial modding community.

but there's a good reason why Java version is capped at 32 render distance chunks without mods

And we shouldn't have to mod our games and risk malware infection from unofficial sites just to optimise our games, that's backwards and I've explained this to several people before, optimisation is and should always be the responsibility of the developers, not the consumers, many who won't understand programming even in Java never mind C++, so are probably not tech savvy enough to avoid malware either.

Microsoft/Mojang did take some risks by implementing bedrock edition as the crossplay version of the game across PC with Windows 10, Switch, Xbox One/S/X, android and iOS and has understandably received criticism for the microtransactions, but really that's the only legitimate argument that stands against bedrock edition in my humble view.

That said, free skins can still be used in Windows 10 edition and will be receiving the super duper graphics/4k update soon on Xbox One X and PC, presumably will be optional, just like the texture packs on Java version.



www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwQDyBYnaQE
Posted by avatar
AGTRigorMortis
Level 6 : Apprentice Miner
8

15 replies

1
12/07/2018 3:42 am
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
avatar
also you've also got to take into consideration Zitzabis, stronger or higher end hardware tends to be more expensive. You can't just keep pinning the blame on the consumer, not everyone has the money to install the latest Intel core i7's or high end AMD Ryzen CPU's in their gaming PC's on top of the latest Nvidia GPU's, a lot of people are actually relatively poor.

This is also another reason why a lot of gamers prefer consoles over PC and for those types of people I can recommend them the Xbox One S if they're into Minecraft. Minecraft bedrock edition ensures they're not missing out, and there's reason to believe all the vanilla game content Minecraft Java has, bedrock edition will eventually receive them, just as it did with the aquatic update.

I do have a gaming PC with an Intel i7 4790k, (an old model but still powerful) but that's beside the point above, plus I like my games to run smooth at all times, I don't like lag spikes each time I encounter new terrain that has only just generated, in bedrock edition this never happens to me, so clearly it's not because of my computer, like some Java defenders have claimed to me in the past.
1
12/08/2018 4:29 am
Level 70 Legendary Gent
Zitzabis
avatar
You're right that not everyone has the money. But that would be like telling the developers of the latest high graphics AAA game title to be more adaptive and support people on the lower-end hardware. Simply put, if you want to run something well, you need the hardware for it. Or at least, that's what the Java edition requires. Call it unfair, but if you want to high horsepower in an engine you can't gripe that the manufacturer only built an engine with 20 instead of 60. You could only afford the 20 horsepower engine so that's the results you'll get.

I again believe the blame is possibly misplaced. While we might criticise Notch for using Java in the first place, it was probably for the best in the early days. Minecraft is well known for the creativity and the community behind it. Had a C++ version been rolled out first, then we wouldn't be where we are now.
I'm grateful for them using Java as it brought a lot more players into the game. I am also grateful that they are rolling out the C++ version. Both have their pros and their cons. Telling them to "fix" the Java version is good in theory (I too would love to see it being optimized more). Though we have to consider, have they not already tried this? I believe they have but again run into faults with the language itself. Which is where the C++ version was a wise choice on their part since they probably knew that. We could say they should just move purely to C++ but then we lose the diverse community of texture pack artists and modders.
1
12/09/2018 11:53 pm
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
avatar
The hardware demands of Minecraft often get underestimated because of the simple graphics compared to some other open world games like Skyrim.

The thing is Minecraft allows for something different than most other games, that's the ability to modify the terrain by mining or breaking blocks

There's also redstone builds which can be used to create redstone computers and animations.

and for every piston moved at once, there's more CPU power needed.
the same is true if there are a lot of NPC's within your active tick radius, which is capped at 12 on bedrock edition.

the higher the render distance, the more chunks are loaded, and the greater the RAM usage. C++ didn't eliminate these basic computing demands obviously, but it did offer the ability to run Minecraft on weaker, often cheaper computer systems at more acceptable performance levels.

It comes down to simple economics and what most people can afford, Java Minecraft may have the edge with regards to the larger modding community, but it falls short where it matters to any serious gamer. The fact the C++ version of Minecraft can have the same vanila content but run better even with greater render distances gives it far more potential, and perhaps bedrock edition could end up replacing Java as the definitive edition of Minecraft because of this.
2
11/28/2018 5:01 pm
Level 3 Apprentice Ranger
Energy Master
avatar
java gots mods i like java
2
11/28/2018 4:49 pm
Level 5 Apprentice Dragon
juicyjonny
avatar
My problem is more with servers. Like for bedrock edition they only have a select few of server which you can access and play on while not being able to join the others. This is really bad for me as someone with many friends that play on the java version and play on servers which I can't access
1
12/07/2018 3:52 am
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
avatar
There's a bedrock edition server software out now, which is in an evaluation (or alpha).
So it looks like you can make your own Minecraft bedrock edition server. However being in alpha means it's a test version, if they intend to release a full version somewhere down the line to download free of charge or with a small fee, then hopefully it'll end up with cross play support like realms and free multiplayer.
5
11/25/2018 6:39 pm
Level 35 Artisan Engineer
ShelLuser
avatar
I don't understand the vs approach in the first place. Why always "versus" instead of simply "as well"?

Not to mention that I think you raise some poor arguments. So a higher render distance automatically accounts for a better gaming experience? I beg to differ; the real gaming experience isn't so much made by how far you can look into the distance but more so how well you can play the game, which is usually something that happens within the direct surroundings of the player. Hostile mobs normally don't attack you from large(r) distances....

Next: "you shouldn't have to mod your games to optimize your game"? Define "optimize" please? You make it sound as if you can't play the vanilla Java edition without modding which is of course plain out nonsense. That only happened once during the 1.8 release, and Mojang sure learned their lesson from that experience.

And well.. risking malware infection? Sorry, but that's a silly argument considering that most mods ship their work as .jar files. Good luck catching a malware infection from a jarfile which you're normally not supposed to run directly in the first place. And even if you do run a jarfile 'out of the box' then there's a ton of failsaves within the Java runtime which will prevent a program from getting out of control, at the very least the user will be warned about such exploitation attempts.

Alas, I cannot answer the question about advantages yet because my new Win10 power pc will ship next year, but solely basing myself on my experiences with the PS3 version of Minecraft I really don't see any advantages. Only obstacles which limit my gaming experience.

The recipe book in the Java edition feels like a true addition, it's use is optional and you can basically use it as you deem fit. On PS3 edition you can't craft anything other than using that silly recipe book.

Which is my main issue: does Bedrock edition have some advantages? I'm sure it has, packed together with tons of disadvantages.

But seriously, who cares? This isn't a competition, you're not a better player by (dis)liking one over the other, that's plain out dumb. Some prefer Java, some prefer Bedrock, some prefer both. End of story.
1
11/25/2018 7:17 pm
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
avatar
"Not to mention that I think you raise some poor arguments. So a higher render distance automatically accounts for a better gaming experience? I beg to differ"

"Next: "you shouldn't have to mod your games to optimize your game"? Define "optimize" please? You make it sound as if you can't play the vanilla Java edition without modding which is of course plain out nonsense"

Clearly I was talking about how the benchmarks show the results of how each version of the game performs in terms of sustained frame rate and which version has the more efficient code base, that's what I meant by optimisation, not just the rendering distance, although it does show that Java performs worse if you end up with worse frame rates even at lower amount of chunks rendered. There's a good reason why they're not using Java Minecraft even on consoles that use x86 hardware.

and it's not nonsense at all, it's objectively false to argue that frame rate isn't important for gaming experience, facts do not care about our opinions.

and it's not just more consistent frame rates on the same PC hardware, it's other things, like cross play on 5 platforms, 6 if PS4 ends up getting bedrock edition of Minecraft due to Sony changing their attitudes on cross platform play, controller support, Java MC is only playable on 3 platforms last I remember being told by a knowledgeable friend of mine. On top of this you get bedrock edition for FREE on top of either your Java MC purchase, or console editions either on Switch or Xbox One, so you're not missing out on anything by only purchasing and using Java version, trying bedrock edition costs you nothing in that case.


If you like or prefer Java MC, that's fine
but remember back when I initially made threads like this, you joined them without my intervention at the time and I only begun private messaging you about the threads I made later on, which is easily readable by the moderators of the forum by the time stamps.

"And well.. risking malware infection? Sorry, but that's a silly argument considering that most mods ship their work as .jar files. Good luck catching a malware infection from a jarfile which you're normally not supposed to run directly in the first place. And even if you do run a jarfile 'out of the box' then there's a ton of failsaves within the Java runtime which will prevent a program from getting out of control, at the very least the user will be warned about such exploitation attempts."

you also have to keep Java up to date as well, seems simple yes, to people like you and me, but as I mentioned in the thread ^ not everyone is tech savvy and not everyone is informed enough to cover up vulnerabilities in their systems and Java is one of the most exploited applications there is on the internet.

"But seriously, who cares? This isn't a competition, you're not a better player by (dis)liking one over the other, that's plain out dumb. Some prefer Java, some prefer Bedrock, some prefer both. End of story."

Some people do care, otherwise some people like Minecrafters on Youtube wouldn't bother comparing them, nobody is saying your a better or worse player by preferring Java over bedrock edition, don't take things out of context. I'm only giving information and facts on what advantages bedrock edition has, and why some of the criticism bedrock edition has been receiving is unfair and downright stupid sometimes.

Nobody is forcing you to buy or download bedrock edition on any platform
and Microsoft aren't forcing us to buy their microtransactions, they're still voluntary exchange. You can still play Minecraft survival without texture packs, I see a lot of Java MC supporters bragging about the free texture packs and mods they have access to, and while that is true, texture packs add nothing to gameplay, all they do is change how objects within the game look, they're aesthetics and nothing more, the exact same argument can be made for the super duper graphics pack update coming to bedrock edition.

So if your going to try to shut down my points by the assertion that this is an argument for "graphics whores" or something like that, forget about it. You know that's not what I'm suggesting. I care more about how efficiently a game runs than less important things like eye candy. Me and a friend I play with have experienced lag using redstone circuits for some of our builds in Java MC, and we do not wish to go through that again so we moved onto bedrock edition for that reason.
3
11/25/2018 9:42 pm
Level 1 New Crafter
romling
avatar
"we shouldn't have to mod our games and risk malware infection from unofficial sites just to optimise our games"

I disagree. If you follow the right guides, and don't click on anything suspicious, you'll be fine.

Bedrock seems to me more like a money-making scheme, in the sense that it has microtransactions in it. It's a great platform, don't get me wrong, but the microtransactions and the limited skins hinder the experience for me.

"many who won't understand programming even in Java never mind C++, so are probably not tech savvy enough to avoid malware either"

learning Java and C++ and avoiding suspicious sites are two completely different levels of tech savvy-ness.
1
11/26/2018 9:36 am
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
avatar
"I disagree. If you follow the right guides, and don't click on anything suspicious, you'll be fine."

Optimising a game's code shouldn't be the communities responsibility, what part of that do you not understand?

"Bedrock seems to me more like a money-making scheme, in the sense that it has microtransactions in it. It's a great platform, don't get me wrong, but the microtransactions and the limited skins hinder the experience for me. "

You can use custom/free skins on Windows 10 edition, I've used them myself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXkIHdXPqUM

"learning Java and C++ and avoiding suspicious sites are two completely different levels of tech savvy-ness."

You're still not making a valid case as to why people should have to mod their games just to get better rendering distances and frame rates out of their games. This silliness is exactly the reason why we end up with poorly optimised games to start with, we need to hold developers accountable, otherwise this is no better than the microtransaction BS we have to deal with on bedrock edition.
2
12/07/2018 2:34 am
Level 70 Legendary Gent
Zitzabis
avatar
"Optimising a game's code shouldn't be the communities responsibility, what part of that do you not understand?"

I don't believe romling was talking about that. Instead they were just talking about the infection risks. I agree with him that if you are posing those risks to yourself, you're probably not practicing safe browsing habits.

Better rendering distances and frame rates isn't an issue with Minecraft. Instead, it's more that you're wanting more than what the game offers. Their current setup works perfectly fine for what they offer.
Issues with frame rates is more likely to do with your hardware. Specifically, if you have better RAM you'll see better performance. That is not the responsibility of the developers, but the customer to ensure they have appropriate hardware. Mojang can only do so much.

Finally, you're pointing the finger of blame at the developers when it's really outside of their control. Java is simply not the best programming language for games. That's part of the reason for the C++ version being rolled out.

You have to consider the trade offs. You can either have supposed game performance issues (which I have seen none of) and have full flexibility on modding and boosting your performance even higher than intended. Or, you can have a game that runs well right out of the box (Bedrock version) but you lose the customization.

Considering Mojang is perfectly able to create a stable game in C++, I strongly doubt that they are at fault for the Java version. It's the language, not the people.
1
12/07/2018 3:24 am
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
avatar
Java is also one of the more exploited applications there is, which is why there are people strongly advising you to keep the application software up to date so there are less vulnerabilities with your system, that part (checking for updates) is the users responsibility, guaranteed.

Don't get me wrong, it has some uses, if I am not mistaken there are a lot of websites that use Javascript.

But it's just not a suitable language for gaming because of the limitations of a virtual machine. There are cases where emulation or virtual machine programs make sense, and this in my humble opinion isn't one of them. Most games are in fact written in C++ for a reason, it's native code, I'm not even a programmer, but it only took using the internet for me to fact check this for myself, plus I have a friend who has learned basic Java programming and he figured this out too.

Of course people should use adequate hardware for gaming, but this doesn't negate the point I've made about using efficient programming. The reason why Minecraft was recompiled in C++ was so it could run on weaker hardware i.e consoles, tablet PC's and smartphones.

Now with bedrock edition we get these bonus features like double the maximum rendering distances without having to use Optifine and with relatively small performance penalties, as well as cross play on 5 different systems on either realms or free multiplayer, 6 if PS4 ends up getting bedrock edition in future.

I do agree with your point though, that it's more to do with the code Notch originally used back when he was dev, than the fault of the Mojang developers themselves. Java has limitations which simply can't be overcome, due to the nature of the interpreter code it uses which ends up requiring more hardware power to run stable than pocket/Windows 10/bedrock edition.

A virtual machine makes sense for running PC software that can't run natively on current Windows (Windows 10) due to incompatibilities, I'm pretty sure you know what I mean, so I don't have to explain.

Emulators which are virtual machines themselves, they make sense with outdated console games that otherwise wouldn't work with the current hardware being manufactured and mass distributed. This is why Nintendo used Virtual Console on the 3DS, Wii and Wii U consoles, on top of this such consoles being emulated are so easy to run on todays hardware that the shortcomings of emulating them is negligible.

But Java VM is a different beast altogether, it was neither necessary nor the best language of choice for Minecraft and the proof is in the pudding. If Java wasn't inferior then Minecraft Java would've been ported to PS4 and Xbox One, since they now use similar architecture to Intel and AMD based Windows PC's, the fact is Mojang knew full well that C++ has inherent advantages.
2
12/08/2018 4:15 am
Level 70 Legendary Gent
Zitzabis
avatar
Java and Javascript aren't comparable. It's a bit of a confusing naming for Javascript. In reality, the closest you get is that both can be object-oriented.

Correct, the virtual machine environment is the primary limitation. Though that lends to it's versatility. If your device can run a Java runtime environment, it can pretty much run any Java application (provided you have the necessary hardware, but software has no limitations). Bedrock is limited to a Windows environment which excludes Mac and Linux users. I'd argue that starting with Java was a wise choice because it allowed you to reach a greater audience.
C++ isn't necessarily native code. Rather, you still need the required runtime to operate certain C++ applications. Java equally uses libraries. From a programming perspective, Java is a lot friendly in this regard as library and package management is a lot easier. It gives you the flexibility of delivering an application as-is and then the user pulls in the required packages. The C++ version basically comes bundled with certain libraries but you're still dependent on the runtime much like Java.

Now in terms of vulnerabilities and updates, you're partly correct.

Above is general stats on the various languages. Yes Java has a much lower pass rate. However, that doesn't necessarily correlate directly to issues with Minecraft. Vulnerabilities can be a merrad of different issues but the primary one that we should be concerned about is our account security. Beyond that, not much else. If you use an application that exploits Java, then you probably didn't practice safe browsing in the first place.
I'd also much rather see frequent updates knowing that there are consistent fixes rather than putting faith in the language itself.
3
11/25/2018 2:54 pm
Level 27 Expert Ninja
Greystalk
avatar
The devs are still trying to optimize the Java Edition though. It's more the platforms fault than the devs. Still, I can play vanilla Minecraft with no mods at all pretty easily on my laptop. Bedrock is better, but that doesn't mean that Java is horrible.
2
11/25/2018 2:58 pm
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
avatar
It's better to think of it like this.
"without Minecraft Java, the console editions and bedrock edition may never have come to fruition"

I concede that it was Notch's first attempt at making a legitimate game.
But Jeb and the rest of the development team at Mojang have improved the game a lot since then, there was a time when villager trades didn't exist in either version.

Search

Browse

Site

© 2010 - 2018
planetminecraft.com

Welcome