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Minecraft Windows 10 edition vs Java

2 emeralds28 replies10,342 views
created 03/06/2018 11:43 am by AGTRigorMortis
last reply 05/11/2018 11:53 am
For comparison, here's a video which explains the important difference between Minecraft Windows 10 edition, now bedrock edition, vs MC Java

Basically, you can have much higher render distances without optifine mods and it doesn't lag while doing so.
After some research I found out that Minecraft Windows 10 edition actually has a maximum render distance of 60 chunks, it only goes up to 56 on mine in single player or free multiplayer.

When I tested Java recently its maximum was only 32 chunks.


Notch's biggest mistake was coding Minecraft originally in Java virtual machine. Even today I dislike Java because of its flaws and this is one of them. It's too slow to be useful as a gaming code, nobody wants lag in games, lag sucks, a lot of this is to do with how good your hardware is, but optimisation and the efficiency of the engine/source code the game uses, is also important.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJQ9EptEi9I
Posted by avatar
AGTRigorMortis
Level 5 : Apprentice Miner
8

28 replies

1
05/11/2018 11:53 am
Level 1 New Miner
roy0927
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I feel some doubt that all the videos can be played in the dvd media player windows 10 ,can any one tell me the best dvd player of all time.
1
03/12/2018 8:43 am
Level 45 Master Batman
Knux
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Java is better. It feels better too. Also more up-to-date
1
03/12/2018 8:53 am
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
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If you're using a PC with an expensive CPU, don't mind having to manually allocate the RAM in the launcher or if you don't care about having the most optimised version, be my guest. But as they say, careful for what you wish for.

I prefer bedrock edition, I like getting the most performance out of my games. Plus excluding mods it has nearly all the content Java version has and is confirmed to be getting the aquatic update, also it's coming to Nintendo Switch this year and will have the majority platform support. Xbox, PC, iOS, android and Switch. On top of this Super Duper graphics pack, an advanced shader pack which won't require fiddling around with mods and launcher to run. :)
1
03/16/2018 12:29 am
Level 17 Journeyman Modder
Nevermind3476
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I have a sucky cpu and have never had to allocate ram, and mine works fine (besides graphic issues that were fixed by the latest driver update). There's something wrong with your computer.
2
04/03/2018 4:33 pm
Level 1 New Miner
chandlerklebs
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No, his computer is fine. My PC is way older than his and runs Bedrock Edition smoothly yet lags terribly in Java. I still like Java edition better but I'll need a way faster computer for it to run as smoothly as Bedrock edition runs on mine. Software optimization counts. It's not all about the hardware. Java Edition does have more features but suffers from the fact that it will always be slower than Bedrock edition when run on the exact same hardware.
2
03/10/2018 6:49 pm
Level 38 Artisan Droid
Scott
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If Minecraft wasn't in Java, it wouldn't be where it is today.

Java is a LOT easier to get setup with in relation to programming, and it became incredibly popular (we are literally on a website that happened because of this) to mod the hell out of the game.

It got a lot of people into programming, and if it was written in a C family language, it would've been harder to get people setup and creating content.

While I understand that Java isn't the most optimised language, it allowed for rapid development of the game, and a good place for budding programmers to start. Java allows easy understanding of key programming concepts without a layer of confusion.

Take for example if Minecraft was written in C++. Header files would've been a problem, and dealing with compilation and getting everything working would've been MUCH more complicated.

Not only that, but decompiling .NET programs is NOWHERE near as easy as it is to decompile Java applications. It is literally a few clicks now to install Eclipse (arguably the starting IDE for new Minecraft modders) and have the decompiled code in front of you.
1
03/12/2018 8:28 am
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
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If it wasn't for Minecraft Java then bedrock edition wouldn't have come to exist yes

but people need to look past their nostalgia glasses and look at the real picture here.
C++ as a source code still existed back in year 2009, there were better alternatives to Java virtual machine at the time, ones which would clearly make a game run much faster/smoother.

and Mojang has already proven that bedrock edition (C++) can run on various different platforms too, just like at what it is currently running on now: iphone, android, Xbox and Windows 10 PC or tablets like the Surface Pro. And soon, the Nintendo Switch will be getting this version. nintendoeverything.com/minecraft-bedrock-edition-submitted-to-nintendo/
2
03/13/2018 4:38 pm
Level 38 Artisan Droid
Scott
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Thats not my point. I'm saying that the modding community would've existed to the scale it is today if it was coded in C++. Its undeniable that C++ is a LOT harder to edit once you have an output binary (unlike java decomposition).
1
03/19/2018 6:15 am
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
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That's not really a valid argument for using Java VM as a source engine. Developers need to learn to use the best tools at their disposal, and if they cannot do that, then in my opinion they may as well not develop games full stop. If you like or prefer Minecraft Java, fine, but there are plenty of people like myself who prefer bedrock edition because of how smooth it runs overall and the fact we'll get to play this game across 5 different platforms.
1
03/10/2018 12:50 pm
Level 29 Expert Goblin
videogamer1002
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literally all your arguments (and the video) are about performance and the programming language, which is the only thing that bedrock does better than java.
1
03/10/2018 3:52 pm
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
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You forgot to mention when it ends up on Nintendo Switch, it'll be cross playable over realms on 5 platforms. Java PC Minecraft is only playable on 3, Windows, Mac and Linux. :)
1
03/10/2018 4:42 pm
Level 29 Expert Goblin
videogamer1002
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ok, bedrock has 2 points, but java has better servers, mods, resourcepacks, builds, commands...
1
03/10/2018 4:45 pm
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
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Bedrock edition has commands too, try creative mode with cheats enabled then give yourself a command block, me and my friends already have a creative server where we do this. You can use custom skins for bedrock edition on PC like you can on Java.

There's also a website where you can get mods for Windows 10 edition. mcpedl.com/how-to-install-addons-for-windows-10/
1
03/15/2018 11:46 pm
Level 17 Journeyman Modder
Nevermind3476
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But you can't use NBT in bedrock, which makes any kind of advanced commad block contraption impossible. Also, addons aren't mods, mods directly edit code, addons just replace stuff via json and texturing.
1
03/09/2018 9:11 pm
Level 35 Artisan Engineer
ShelLuser
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I have to disagree with your negative comments regarding Java. Although many people claim the language is slow it's actually pure nonsense because when programmed properly then a Java program can easily be used for gaming if you want to. Another aspect to consider is that when you have a Java game you'll automatically cover 3 main platforms at once (Windows, Mac OS, Linux) and that's not something easily done otherwise.

With all that plus the very good accessibility of the Java platform as a whole (it's easy to learn) I'd say that Java was probably the best choice to make.

Too many people blame their own shortcomings on the tools they use, and if enough do that then others might even start believing that it's true. In this case it's not.

Note that I'm not claiming that Java is perfect or anything, and I definitely agree that if you build a setup using C (for example) you'll get more flexibility (if you know what you're doing!) because you don't have to rely on "standarized" routines to make things work but can actually optimize your code as much as possible. Of course you'll also be targeting one specific platform but that's besides the point.

But still. Java is hardly as bad as you claim it to be. As I said: in my opinion only a certain group of people blame the tools they use for their own shortcomings. And Java seriously isn't any different here.
1
03/10/2018 9:35 am
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
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Bedrock edition will be cross playable on up to 5 platforms at once, when the realms update comes to Nintendo Switch, it is already cross compatible with 4, iOS, android, PC and Xbox One/S/X

It is proven that Windows 10 edition is far more optimised, by default and without the need for mods. So no, people aren't blaming their shortcomings on this one, you can't change reality or the facts, and the reality is Java VM doesn't run as fast as Windows 10 edition. This is why it was able to handle a higher rendering distance without causing severe lag in the first place.
1
03/10/2018 9:41 am
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
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and FYI I have a PC with an i7 4790k, 16gb of DDR3 and a GTX 970. So I'm not using a "garbage PC"
I've ran tests, thoroughly and so have friends of mine and we all found similar results on this one, Windows 10 edition doesn't lag, while MC Java does sometimes, especially with 32 chunk rendering.

and you claiming Java was "the best choice to make" shows you haven't actually tested them both or cared to. If Java VM was so great there wouldn't have been a need for Mojang to redesign the game in C++ to begin with. :)
1
03/10/2018 12:18 pm
Level 35 Artisan Engineer
ShelLuser
avatar
> It is proven that Windows 10 edition is far more optimised, by default and without the
> need for mods.
But is that because of the way Minecraft was programmer or due to the limitations of the Java VM? If you look at the dramatic speed and optimization improvements they managed to make for 1.13 then I think it's obvious that there's much more to it.

> and you claiming Java was "the best choice to make" shows you haven't actually tested
> them both or cared to.
I don't need to. It's not only about performance. What you fail to realize is that there's a huge difference between distributing a game (or any other kind of software) on the PC market or that for the console. For starters: the startup costs involved with developing on the console platform are huge, no matter if you're targeting XBox or Playstation. And you're pretty much limited in what you can and cannot do. If the companies suddenly deem your game inappropriate for whatever reason then good luck to you because you had to sign off several agreements which give them the power to do just that.

This is not something lucrative to do for a small Indie company.

Because if you're developing fo the PC platform then you're fully free to do whatever you want. Software distribution? Worst case scenario is that you get yourself a VPS from a provider and use that to host your website on. Done. The investment is pretty much non-existent in comparison to the consoles.

So then you're left with a choice. If you decide to focus on one platform only (Windows / Apple / Linux) you're automatically limiting yourself. If you chose to develop for all platforms at once you're creating an enormous overhead and are once again looking at huge investment costs (instead of one source tree your developers would now need to maintain 3 and somehow seem to manage to port new features from one into the other).

With Java all of those problems were non-existent. One development platform, 3 main computer platforms to target and no extra investment and/or development costs needed. Which made Java the perfect choice to begin with.

See, that's another problem in your argumentation: we're talking about the period when all of this started. And there were no signs that Minecraft was going to take off as it did, which made Java plain and simple the best choice to begin with. Because it gave Mojang the best buck for their money.
1
03/10/2018 12:40 pm
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
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"I don't need to. It's not only about performance. What you fail to realize is that there's a huge difference between distributing a game (or any other kind of software) on the PC market or that for the console."

Performance is still a big part of what makes a game playable and there's no getting around this fact, nobody wants a game which lag spikes as the world is rendering while you are playing, you have to realise that Minecraft is an open world game and relies on a chunk loading system to generate terrain or load it from a save file.

Last I checked this game only supported 1 CPU thread in its early development, that was also a big flaw, back in 2009 to 2011 we already had quad core CPU's in desktops, so that kind of innovation had relevance at the time and it wouldn't have been unreasonable to expect an open world game to use at least 2 threads for faster asset loading.

indie game or not, I don't see the excuse here because it seems to me like you're brushing the importance of optimisation to one side just because of budget constraints or something along them lines.
1
03/10/2018 6:42 pm
Level 35 Artisan Engineer
ShelLuser
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> Performance is still a big part of what makes a game playable and there's no
> getting around this fact,
Correct.

So what, are you now trying to claim the first releases of Minecraft were unplayable? But if that were true, then how the heck did it manage to take off in the way it did?

See, that's another major flaw in your arguments: hindsight. It's always easy to look back at something and then say "it could have been done better". Yah, duh! This argument about performance alone tells me that you're not even trying to place yourself in their shoes at that time.

Fact of the matter is that Java was the best choice for Minecraft to start with because it allowed them to target multiple platforms at once without any extra overhead costs and as a bonus it also provided an entrance for the community to heavily expand on the whole thing.

When you claim that Java was a bad idea you're looking at the whole thing with the Windows 10 version in mind, while totally ignoring the fact that when Minecraft began things were massively different. For starters that version didn't even exist.

But more importantly: connectivity is what made Minecraft great. Back in the day it didn't matter if you had a Mac, PC or Linux. We were bonded as Minecraft players because we visited the same servers, did the same things and we had fun.

And here you are: Java was a bad idea to begin with.

Sorry to say but if you still feel this way then yeah.. each to their own but then I'll also say that you really don't understand at all what it takes to actually start a project such as this. You're not even trying.

There is more to a game than looks and performance alone. And that applies double if you're just a nobody Indie game developer which has yet to proof itself. That is the part you're ignoring. Even if they had pushed straight to the console, or to a fully optimized PC version (PC only) then it seriously remained to be seen if Minecraft would have taken off in the way it did.

Hindsight is easy, don't rely on it to make your arguments.
2
03/07/2018 5:43 pm
Level 45 Master Pixel Painter
fisher521
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The better render distance performance on Bedrock Engine is because of how it works.

On Java, Render distance and update distance are coupled together. However, on Bedrock Engine, Render distance and update distance are separate. This means you can see farther while the game only updates the chunks closest to you, saving performance.
1
03/08/2018 11:03 am
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
avatar
That is true, but this is still straight to the hardware C++, which means it isn't using some interpreter code like Java VM was to execute the application, it's native hardware this time and was a good move by Microsoft.

even if distance and tick radius were the same Windows 10 edition would most likely still run a lot better than the Java version on the exact same hardware.

I have a friend on Twitter who tells me Minecraft Java runs worse for him than Windows 10 edition and he uses an Intel i5 and an Nvidia GTX 1070 graphics card.

Emulation may work well for retro games, but not something like this. Emulation is too inefficient to make it worth while with a game like Minecraft.
3
03/06/2018 12:28 pm
Level 1 New Miner
chandlerklebs
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Of course you have to admit that Java was a lot easier for people to mod because of the fact that people were able to somehow decompile the Java code and figure out how to modify it without access to the source code. Of course the Windows 10 edition does have superior performance but they made it a lot harder for people to hack and mess with. This can be good or bad depending on your opinion. I like how easy it is to screw around with the region files and delete parts of the world in Java edition. As far as playing the game itself, Bedrock Edition is better although I feel it still has a lot more bugs in it compared to the Java edition.
2
03/06/2018 12:38 pm
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
avatar
That is true, Windows 10 edition does have more annoying glitches than Java version

but how long has Java version been in development? a lot longer than Windows 10 edition
the beta of Minecraft Java started in year 2009, the final release of Java didn't come out until 2011.

Meanwhile Windows 10 edition, which uses C++ has only existed since the year 2015 beta.
2
03/08/2018 9:48 pm
Level 1 New Miner
chandlerklebs
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I suppose the fact that they already released Windows 10 edition has allowed users to report the bugs so that they will be fixed.
1
03/09/2018 8:39 am
Level 6 Apprentice Miner
AGTRigorMortis
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It is our responsibility to report bugs to them when necessary yes, but the tile.movingBlock.name bug has existed in the game for some time now and should have been fixed months ago.

You're supposed to be able to get infinite stone from lava and water, as long as you don't turn the lava source into obsidian. Something as basic as this should've been corrected already.

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