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The "Commercial Advertising" Rule, and it's pros/cons
Knightsundere
LightlySaltedBuilderTHE RULE IN QUESTION
3.9 Advertising External Websites/Commercial Advertising
The term 'commercial activity' mentioned in the following section includes any action involving monetary transactions, whether it is the user selling or buying a product/service. Exceptions can be made (think of charities), but they're very rare and you should not expect to have one.The use of Planet Minecraft to obtain free advertising or to promote other websites is strictly forbidden. This includes, but is not limited to, posting referral links to other websites. Posting on the site, forums, or chatroom is for non-commercial purposes only. You may not post in any manner which promotes, or is intended to promote or generate revenue, for a business enterprise, or commercial activity. This includes, but is not limited to, individuals selling items, persuading a user to endorse a page on a social media site in return for reward or gain, or posting through link shortening services such as AdFly. For acceptable use of AdFly, please see the appropriate section below under the Submission Guidelines. Posting advertising content such as this is prohibited in all areas of the site, including forum signatures and your about me section, and ignoring this guideline will result in a ban. Posting advertisements for any site that is intended to perform a service that Planet Minecraft is intended to perform, such as server listing, is not permitted.
The rule, in short, prevents the outright advertising of paid services/paid products, and also (though far less enforced) bans the linking on PMC to sites that would permit these practices.
The original intention of the rule was as such:
-- The rule was in place before Paril arrived to the site, though, the gap was short --
This was combined on top of some small form of liability protection for PMC, should a user have any kind of dispute with a content creator; protecting against the scenario where a confused user would end up harassing moderators/site staff when their actual issue was directly with the content creator.
Removing the rule would allow for linking to other websites where a content creator might have a business setup or a similar transaction service, advertising of services directly on the site (via profile notes/blurbs, wall posts, forum posts/shops, advertising in the description or title of uploads, etc.) [not all of these may be permitted, but the list is meant as an example of the results]. It would ease the process for content creators to find buyers for their content/work, and conversely alleviate the search that some users have for good, custom content creation and creators.
The rule, as it is currently, protects against the potential scamming of users through content creators deceiving users. This becomes more of a problem as the age demographic of a site slips lower and lower (a factor that is hugely prevalent on PMC). The rule additionally protects, though to a much lesser extent, content creators from non-serious buyers or scamming buyers.
In further conversation with Paril and other PMC users, it was made [mostly] clear that a streamlined transaction system (similar to a "Purchase" button next to an uploaded post) was impractical, dangerous for the user, the site, and the creator, and was generally unwanted.
What are your thoughts? Should commissions and commission advertising (as well as the other commercial advertising that would come should the rule be removed) be allowed on the site? How should it be encouraged/enabled?
Feel free to cast a vote on the matter.
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2
I think the best option would just be to modify the rule to allow advertissing of minecraft based services, namely server builds, textures, and skins. This way people could still advertise their services, without opening the gates to people who want to sell random stuff.
3
I find there's a certain appeal to a site without the constant presence of commercial ads. It gives this place a function beyond mc-market, which is a site dedicated to the commercial aspect. I see no issues with going there as opposed to seeking money from people who, demographically speaking, are quite likely to be sapping off funds not their own anyways to pay competent folks selling their services (I don't consider mind-numbingly simple factions server setups a service worth paying for, which is something that has been attempted here several times). The servers alone have a pretty massive, well saturated niche.
That said, I'm not entirely opposed to the concept. I'd support it should it
> be firmly regulated, ie, a single forum section to which all commercial ads are to be placed;
> have rules against unsolicited ads being posted onto people's posts, especially in other sections;
> a huge disclaimer that PMC is no more affiliated with people offering commercial servers anymore than PMC has any control over server owners, and that one approaches the ads at their own risk. Liability is a (choice word here), and no site needs the garbage of people scamming and people making a fit about scams beyond the thread the ad was sourced in.
That said, I'm not entirely opposed to the concept. I'd support it should it
> be firmly regulated, ie, a single forum section to which all commercial ads are to be placed;
> have rules against unsolicited ads being posted onto people's posts, especially in other sections;
> a huge disclaimer that PMC is no more affiliated with people offering commercial servers anymore than PMC has any control over server owners, and that one approaches the ads at their own risk. Liability is a (choice word here), and no site needs the garbage of people scamming and people making a fit about scams beyond the thread the ad was sourced in.
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I don't know about you, but in my opinion, we should keep the rule on "no stupid scam advertisements". The reason why I joined PMC in the first place was because it wasn't corporate, but at the same time, it at least made money. Letting random people advertise their sites or whatever (especially on blogs) could lead to loads of disaster in the PMC community, and more open to lots of crappy malware. Heck, PMC is a site not just for teens, but for kids too. I could see it now... A kid (let's say he's a boy) randomly searches on PMC and finds a commercialized blog or whatever about (let's just say) lowering taxes with a particular site. He would have no idea what that is, and go complain to a moderator about it, but the moderator replies "Sorry, but there is no rule on corporate advertising, so you might as well act like a man and deal with it. You can make a ticket, but we'll see if we get enough requests to make it a rule again". Unfortunately, the kid gets furious, rants about it, leaves the site, and decreasing overall revenue and appeal for PMC (Because more kids (and possibly teens) would leave from this rule removal). Business deals should stay within tickets, and only with tickets (Yeah, I saw a ticket saying "I'd like to do business with PMC!", so I guess that proves it). People shouldn't just go spamming "spin the wheel to win an iPad" links all the time, because kids could easily be fooled by it (and trust me, when I was 7 (in 2007)while looking at the Cartoon Network site, I was fooled by this perfectly...) and get malware on their computer. Like, this isn't the YouTube comments section. We're more sophisticated than most of them, am I right? The PMC moderators are the most kind and smart people on here, so I hope they don't make a huge mistake and turn this site into Google, because this is why I joined PMC in the first place. I rest my case.
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I was going to attempt to defend this, and then I realized I didn't really get it either.
Keep in mind that I'm basing this off of my idea of execution, which assumes advertising will be well regulated, similar (perhaps even better) to the way PMC handles server ads.
The bias and exaggeration is pretty clear here. Not everyone posts "stupid scam advertisements". A good number do, and a good number simply don't know how to make good services and depend on people who don't know how to spend money, but it is not an absolute that what you see will be a scam. There are, in fact, legitimate services around. I believe they're best suited to the site I mentioned above, but PMC could dabble safely enough.
I don't think you give PMC any credit at all if you think they're just going to delete the rule and say "post anywhere". I hope you would have noticed how server advertisements work. Commercial advertising has similar, if not worse, potential for liability to PMC, and has a firm niche that goes beyond the general purposes of this site. I'd wonder if the admins haven't lost their minds if they didn't regulate where the ads would be posted.
Further, I doubt ads would be any more prevalent (again, perhaps less so) than servers in blogs, and blog advertising is not a big way to go about it. By my idea, blogs wouldn't even be a medium. Like servers, commercial advertising would not be totally rampant.
The kid in your example is just as likely to click on a regular ad and make the same response, or to encounter the same scenario elsewhere, and quite simply should suck it up.
This thread has not approached the angle of business deals with PMC, which, I'd imagine, would not change in policy. People cannot just ask to do stuff for PMC anywhere. And if they did, I'd be concerned about their ability to make a living working for PMC.
Put in the proper section and well executed, the only kids that would be fooled are the kids that needed to learn the lesson some way or another. Rest assured, this site will probably not become Google or Walmart.
Also, lowering taxes. Wot.
Keep in mind that I'm basing this off of my idea of execution, which assumes advertising will be well regulated, similar (perhaps even better) to the way PMC handles server ads.
The bias and exaggeration is pretty clear here. Not everyone posts "stupid scam advertisements". A good number do, and a good number simply don't know how to make good services and depend on people who don't know how to spend money, but it is not an absolute that what you see will be a scam. There are, in fact, legitimate services around. I believe they're best suited to the site I mentioned above, but PMC could dabble safely enough.
I don't think you give PMC any credit at all if you think they're just going to delete the rule and say "post anywhere". I hope you would have noticed how server advertisements work. Commercial advertising has similar, if not worse, potential for liability to PMC, and has a firm niche that goes beyond the general purposes of this site. I'd wonder if the admins haven't lost their minds if they didn't regulate where the ads would be posted.
Further, I doubt ads would be any more prevalent (again, perhaps less so) than servers in blogs, and blog advertising is not a big way to go about it. By my idea, blogs wouldn't even be a medium. Like servers, commercial advertising would not be totally rampant.
The kid in your example is just as likely to click on a regular ad and make the same response, or to encounter the same scenario elsewhere, and quite simply should suck it up.
This thread has not approached the angle of business deals with PMC, which, I'd imagine, would not change in policy. People cannot just ask to do stuff for PMC anywhere. And if they did, I'd be concerned about their ability to make a living working for PMC.
Put in the proper section and well executed, the only kids that would be fooled are the kids that needed to learn the lesson some way or another. Rest assured, this site will probably not become Google or Walmart.
Also, lowering taxes. Wot.
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I have no idea what you're trying to say with this reply.
No one's suggesting we allow "stupid scam advertisements". We're not going to give people room to advertise kitchen supplies for god sake. Making a post saying "hey I do server stuff and I can do it especially for you, for the small price of XYZ$" doesn't do anyone harm. How exactly would you catch malware from a transaction?
"A kid (let's say he's a boy) randomly searches on PMC and finds a commercialized blog or whatever about (let's just say) lowering taxes with a particular site."
Lowering taxes...what?
"He would have no idea what that is, and go complain to a moderator about it, but the moderator replies"
Since when is not understanding something a valid reason to go to a moderator about it?
"Unfortunately, the kid gets furious, rants about it, leaves the site, and decreasing overall revenue and appeal for PMC (Because more kids (and possibly teens) would leave from this rule removal). "
What does the kid get furious about? That someone is selling their work that they made? I don't like how my local market sells XYZ product, should I rant about and protest about it even though there's no real reason other than "I don't like it"?
"Business deals should stay within tickets, and only with tickets (Yeah, I saw a ticket saying "I'd like to do business with PMC!", so I guess that proves it). People shouldn't just go spamming "spin the wheel to win an iPad" links all the time, because kids could easily be fooled by it (and trust me, when I was 7 (in 2007)while looking at the Cartoon Network site, I was fooled by this perfectly...) and get malware on their computer. "
Holy... what are you even talking about? No one suggested we sell the site to a series of multimillion corporations and start advertising for gardening tools or something. Literally the only thing we're asking for with this post is to let people request to get payed for their work.
No one's suggesting we allow "stupid scam advertisements". We're not going to give people room to advertise kitchen supplies for god sake. Making a post saying "hey I do server stuff and I can do it especially for you, for the small price of XYZ$" doesn't do anyone harm. How exactly would you catch malware from a transaction?
"A kid (let's say he's a boy) randomly searches on PMC and finds a commercialized blog or whatever about (let's just say) lowering taxes with a particular site."
Lowering taxes...what?
"He would have no idea what that is, and go complain to a moderator about it, but the moderator replies"
Since when is not understanding something a valid reason to go to a moderator about it?
"Unfortunately, the kid gets furious, rants about it, leaves the site, and decreasing overall revenue and appeal for PMC (Because more kids (and possibly teens) would leave from this rule removal). "
What does the kid get furious about? That someone is selling their work that they made? I don't like how my local market sells XYZ product, should I rant about and protest about it even though there's no real reason other than "I don't like it"?
"Business deals should stay within tickets, and only with tickets (Yeah, I saw a ticket saying "I'd like to do business with PMC!", so I guess that proves it). People shouldn't just go spamming "spin the wheel to win an iPad" links all the time, because kids could easily be fooled by it (and trust me, when I was 7 (in 2007)while looking at the Cartoon Network site, I was fooled by this perfectly...) and get malware on their computer. "
Holy... what are you even talking about? No one suggested we sell the site to a series of multimillion corporations and start advertising for gardening tools or something. Literally the only thing we're asking for with this post is to let people request to get payed for their work.
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I'd be open to looser rules when it comes to advertising paid-for services, such as allowing members to provide more detailed commission info on their profile page beyond "I'm a builder/skinner/etc. who also does commissions" but I think the site should stay geared more towards general content sharing rather than content selling.
Considering how many submissions are already disabled or removed on a regular basis for trying to sell whatever the submission's about, I worry loosening the commercial advertising rules too much could result in the site just turning into a marketplace where nobody wants to share anything unless there's some financial incentive.
I definitely don't think PMC should ever create its own transaction system though. Way too many of those submissions removed for commercial advertising are trying to sell builds that don't even belong to them.
Considering how many submissions are already disabled or removed on a regular basis for trying to sell whatever the submission's about, I worry loosening the commercial advertising rules too much could result in the site just turning into a marketplace where nobody wants to share anything unless there's some financial incentive.
I definitely don't think PMC should ever create its own transaction system though. Way too many of those submissions removed for commercial advertising are trying to sell builds that don't even belong to them.
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Last time this was discussed among the team, it was agreed upon that a user can list on their profile that they take comissions and if someone was interested, they should PM them for more details.
This isn't reflected officially in the rules yet, but that's why I added that to my account. I really think that's the only extent it should go to: saying you take commissions on your own posts. Soliciting people like in chat or making threads solely dedicated to selling your stuff should remain off the site, IMO.
This isn't reflected officially in the rules yet, but that's why I added that to my account. I really think that's the only extent it should go to: saying you take commissions on your own posts. Soliciting people like in chat or making threads solely dedicated to selling your stuff should remain off the site, IMO.
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Oh yeah I know. Was saying I'd be open to allowing a bit more detailed info as long as it stays contained entirely on their profile and doesn't start running onto their submissions, comments, etc.
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This is basically what I want I want to be able to also take commissions, I have no intentions to stop making free content for my subs, I just want to be able to make custom content for individuals who seek it from me. I just want to be able to advertise that I also take commissions ^^ I like that PMC has a community who love sharing free things, so I am personally going to continue making lots of free skins still c:
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I think it would still be too prone to problematic situations such as scamming and breaking the EULA. My experience on forums where advertising was allowed is mostly negative. I think money-driven content creators can ruin communities. The pride of this website seems to be that people just like to show and share their creations, which is exactly what I think makes it so successful. It's not just about the potential scams, it's also about the entire image of the site and community.
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Something I've always wondered about is why a parent's permission isn't required to register for this site (yeah, I get that age isn't a factor when registering, but as our demographic slips well below the "requirements" of the COPPA, it honestly might not hurt if it would be considered worth the effort). If this element was added, then a Terms and Conditions for using the site could be added and virtually signed, and thus give PMC a way of waiving any transaction-based liability away (since minors can't be held to contracts super well).
If you can't tell I'm for the idea of allowing commercial things on PMC, as long as PMC can't be blamed for any mishaps.
If you can't tell I'm for the idea of allowing commercial things on PMC, as long as PMC can't be blamed for any mishaps.
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Pretty much this tbh. Probably won't care much for this system but if it does I don't want the site to get backlash for anything that may occur.
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Unlocked. Thread isn't a formal site suggestion. It's looking to open discussion about a debatable topic that may or may not lead to viable suggestions worth opening tickets for.
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Please make this a ticket as the forums aren't the place for site suggestions. The discussion on this subject can continue there.
www.planetminecraft.com/tickets/new
www.planetminecraft.com/tickets/new
