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Edit: Cyprezz replied. I recommend taking a look at it as he addressed several of my points well.
It really doesn't feel like my effort is being respected here on PMC when an "OP ORES!!!!" pack gets more downloads in a day than a high effort pack that took upwards of 20 hours to make gets in almost a month.
In fact, I could say this about most high effort packs on PMC. Very few good, survival friendly packs have eclipsed about 5,000 downloads.
Take The Creeper's Code for example. This is (in my informed opinion) one of the best-made datapacks out there. It's enormous yet still manages to effectively avoid lag, and it adds its content very cleanly. But here on PMC, it only has 1.5k downloads. Why is this? Because the way PMC works, low-effort packs are much easier to find than high-effort ones.
Let me elaborate on that. The popular reel features packs which achieve some unknown criteria. The biggest thing I know about this criteria is that it heavily favors established creators; almost all of my packs released after Undermagic have reached the popular reel within 24 hours of release.
However, the popular reel is simply an algorithm. It does not have anything to do with the actual quality or even popularity of a given pack. I've seen packs with at most 50 downloads reach the popular reel. Similarly, I've seen packs with 1,000 downloads, but 5 or 6 diamonds at most (compare this to a quality pack like Marina which has 59 diamonds for its 1,006 downloads). Thus, more often than not these packs are the clickbaity sort of pack. Things like "OP ORES!!!!" that are not suited for normal survival gameplay in a setting like an SMP.
The popular reel has another colossal flaw: a pack can only be featured once in its entire lifetime! This is completely ridiculous and drastically favors creators who release enormous quantities of small, clickbaity packs over creators who build up one or two large packs over time with updates. Undermagic, for example, has been continuously updated over nearly 2 years, yet was featured once, incredibly early in its life before it could become actually sizeable and good. It's simply not fair.
In that same vein, the default view for the Data Packs category is the "Updated" view. This favors low-quality packs for the same reason. High-quality packs which take much longer to update will have a much harder time maintaining their spot on the main page of the category.
Even if one goes to the "Best" category, this is a poor representation of good packs as well. Not only does it default to the past 24 hours, making it only highlight packs that were recently released, the "Best" sorting is not an accurate representation of the quality of a pack, even when set to All Time. There are two packs that do the same general thing within the top three packs. Within the top 15 packs of all time, I counted four packs that are not survival friendly (by means of simply adding a gimmick which removes normal survival).
One of these packs is a "very easy difficulty" which, based off a quick dive into the files, consists of only two functions and some assorted overpowered recipes. The two functions constantly grant all players diamond armor enchanted with overleveled protection enchantments as well as high levels of numerous positive potion effects that grant the player practical invincibility. This is not a survival friendly or high effort datapack. I could have made this pack and published it in 10 minutes or less if I wanted.
And yet, Planet Minecraft still considers this pack the 14th best data pack on the site. The fact that a pack like this can hold that stature is demoralizing and makes me (and I know for certain the creators of other high effort packs) feel like our efforts are not being respected.
This isn't only bad for creators. When these high-effort packs are buried, it makes it harder for the end-user to find what they want, too. If good packs are buried 10 pages down in the default view, no one is going to see them.
PMC folks, if you're reading this, please consider this: Us datapackers need a good home site that can display good packs to people who want them. We have been promised this by various sites in the past. As of yet, no site has delivered. I dearly hope that you all might be the ones to step up to the plate.
Thank you.
It really doesn't feel like my effort is being respected here on PMC when an "OP ORES!!!!" pack gets more downloads in a day than a high effort pack that took upwards of 20 hours to make gets in almost a month.
In fact, I could say this about most high effort packs on PMC. Very few good, survival friendly packs have eclipsed about 5,000 downloads.
Take The Creeper's Code for example. This is (in my informed opinion) one of the best-made datapacks out there. It's enormous yet still manages to effectively avoid lag, and it adds its content very cleanly. But here on PMC, it only has 1.5k downloads. Why is this? Because the way PMC works, low-effort packs are much easier to find than high-effort ones.
Let me elaborate on that. The popular reel features packs which achieve some unknown criteria. The biggest thing I know about this criteria is that it heavily favors established creators; almost all of my packs released after Undermagic have reached the popular reel within 24 hours of release.
However, the popular reel is simply an algorithm. It does not have anything to do with the actual quality or even popularity of a given pack. I've seen packs with at most 50 downloads reach the popular reel. Similarly, I've seen packs with 1,000 downloads, but 5 or 6 diamonds at most (compare this to a quality pack like Marina which has 59 diamonds for its 1,006 downloads). Thus, more often than not these packs are the clickbaity sort of pack. Things like "OP ORES!!!!" that are not suited for normal survival gameplay in a setting like an SMP.
The popular reel has another colossal flaw: a pack can only be featured once in its entire lifetime! This is completely ridiculous and drastically favors creators who release enormous quantities of small, clickbaity packs over creators who build up one or two large packs over time with updates. Undermagic, for example, has been continuously updated over nearly 2 years, yet was featured once, incredibly early in its life before it could become actually sizeable and good. It's simply not fair.
In that same vein, the default view for the Data Packs category is the "Updated" view. This favors low-quality packs for the same reason. High-quality packs which take much longer to update will have a much harder time maintaining their spot on the main page of the category.
Even if one goes to the "Best" category, this is a poor representation of good packs as well. Not only does it default to the past 24 hours, making it only highlight packs that were recently released, the "Best" sorting is not an accurate representation of the quality of a pack, even when set to All Time. There are two packs that do the same general thing within the top three packs. Within the top 15 packs of all time, I counted four packs that are not survival friendly (by means of simply adding a gimmick which removes normal survival).
One of these packs is a "very easy difficulty" which, based off a quick dive into the files, consists of only two functions and some assorted overpowered recipes. The two functions constantly grant all players diamond armor enchanted with overleveled protection enchantments as well as high levels of numerous positive potion effects that grant the player practical invincibility. This is not a survival friendly or high effort datapack. I could have made this pack and published it in 10 minutes or less if I wanted.
And yet, Planet Minecraft still considers this pack the 14th best data pack on the site. The fact that a pack like this can hold that stature is demoralizing and makes me (and I know for certain the creators of other high effort packs) feel like our efforts are not being respected.
This isn't only bad for creators. When these high-effort packs are buried, it makes it harder for the end-user to find what they want, too. If good packs are buried 10 pages down in the default view, no one is going to see them.
PMC folks, if you're reading this, please consider this: Us datapackers need a good home site that can display good packs to people who want them. We have been promised this by various sites in the past. As of yet, no site has delivered. I dearly hope that you all might be the ones to step up to the plate.
Thank you.
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I'm guessing this whole thing is the same for texture packs. I am a texture pack maker, my current one has taken over 2 months.. so I'd consider that at least medium quality. I'm no data pack maker, nor do I understand them much, but I've noticed some of my friends' low quality, made-in-10-minute packs, usually get more downloads & views than a pack I make that takes 1-2 months. It's hard to find many GOOD things on PMC, and honestly seeing that a made-in-10-minute pack gets more successful than my pack that took 2 months (with better textures btw.. that's not my opinion.. that's about 50 peoples' opinions.), it's seriously discouraging. Sometime in early August 2021, it even got me to make a pack that took about 5 minutes to make, and it got more popular than my main pack, which at the time, took 2 weeks. Now we're talking I think about a matter of like 10-20 extra views, and maybe about 5-15 extra downloads. Anything that takes a long time to make, is not going to be as successful, sadly. Skins, texture packs, data packs, mods, etc.
My experience in PMC -
When i first joined PMC i saw all these packs and they were in trend, many youtubers used it etc, when i read the rules i didnt see anyhting about OP loot packs but it was a trend that didnt last even a year and has stopped now, even i have stopped making low effort packs and have moved on to mods and plugins and some other quality of life datapacks. This topic has been brought up again and before telling anything again remember that this trend is dead and there is no point in publishing op loot packs.
Nowadays TBH i dont really see any good datapack hit even 1k views its like as if pmc's users have just disappeared magically
When i first joined PMC i saw all these packs and they were in trend, many youtubers used it etc, when i read the rules i didnt see anyhting about OP loot packs but it was a trend that didnt last even a year and has stopped now, even i have stopped making low effort packs and have moved on to mods and plugins and some other quality of life datapacks. This topic has been brought up again and before telling anything again remember that this trend is dead and there is no point in publishing op loot packs.
Nowadays TBH i dont really see any good datapack hit even 1k views its like as if pmc's users have just disappeared magically
8 months later and the OP datapacks still isn't dead, I don't know what you were seeing there.. xD
I don't agree that "there is no point in publishing op loot packs". Some OP packs might be fun to play around with, we just don't need the almost exact same packs ovover and over again.
I don't agree that "there is no point in publishing op loot packs". Some OP packs might be fun to play around with, we just don't need the almost exact same packs ovover and over again.
I had no idea that a datapack can only ever end up on the popular reel once in it's lifetime. I had just always assumed that pushing an update log was treated similarly to releasing a new pack. Even if they didn't change the current system, they could at minimum add a new tab to the datapack section that favors high effort packs. In all honesty I'm more familiar with the book selling market on amazon than I am PMC's algorithm for promoting datapacks. In that market it's kind of the opposite. It's polarized towards the people at the top always staying at the top. This has its own pros and cons so I'm not going to say it's necessarily better, but there's no reason that the two philosophies can't coexist. My assumption would have been that New and Trending represent the two types of highly dynamic feeds, while Updated and Best represent the two types of highly static feeds. In the absence of this, we're left with the Downloads and Views sub-sections as our only highly static feed, which is such a blunt, polarized tool that it's barely worth calling a substitute. Then again, what do I know lol. I'm sure I'm being more than a little arrogant.
Yes, you are absolutely right about low-effort datapacks being more popular than really good high-effort datapacks. The thing is, I think it is not PMC's problem, it is the people who use them. They most of the time download datapacks that make OP stuff, easy-access everything, bunch of custom recipes and loot tables. If you really want your datapacks to be downloaded or viewed, you need to follow the trends so they can also see your datapacks and maybe check your high-effort datapacks later.
I'm absolutely not stooping that low.
You see my view is, the game's the game. if you're developing for downloads you have to learn to play the game. You have to keep up with trends or make your own trends, either give the people what they want or give them something they never knew they wanted. Something they will enjoy and is accessible to the many and simple usually.
Now if you develop because you love it then do it for your sake not the downloads or views.
Now if you develop because you love it then do it for your sake not the downloads or views.
I mean I find I do a mixture but the things I put my heart and soul into I usually do not upload because they wont do well on PMC because there all technical and specific and my profile is not about that on PMC - yes maybe on github it is but that's me.
I find that this applies to skins as well. My low effort skins get way more downloads that my skins that I spend weeks on. This is kinda frustrating but it doesn't mean that I'm just gonna start making crappy skins just so they get more downloads. I love makings skins and I'm still gonna spend hours on em even if I don't get a lot of downloads.
If you love making packs then the number of downloads, diamonds or hearts shouldn't matter. What matters is if you loving doing it. <3
No offense meant. <3
If you love making packs then the number of downloads, diamonds or hearts shouldn't matter. What matters is if you loving doing it. <3
No offense meant. <3
Disclaimer: I haven't read everything as there is too much to read.
Here's my two cents for anyone that cares:
I get you, we both prefer functional datapacks adding new functionality over resource-pack-style "find and replace" packs. (For recipes and loot tables). However, PMC only really displays what people like (as Cyprezz said) and it would be wrong for the website not to. The fact that most people prefer quick and dirty data packs is a people problem, not a PMC problem. And it frustrates me equally much, but I don't think PMC should change towards promoting higher quality data packs (also as Cyprezz explained). On that note, I appreciate that your post is actually well written and worth reading.
You'll have to trust PMC promotion algorithms and work on conveying creations to your audience. (AKA add the right kind of "flare").
Here's my two cents for anyone that cares:
I get you, we both prefer functional datapacks adding new functionality over resource-pack-style "find and replace" packs. (For recipes and loot tables). However, PMC only really displays what people like (as Cyprezz said) and it would be wrong for the website not to. The fact that most people prefer quick and dirty data packs is a people problem, not a PMC problem. And it frustrates me equally much, but I don't think PMC should change towards promoting higher quality data packs (also as Cyprezz explained). On that note, I appreciate that your post is actually well written and worth reading.
You'll have to trust PMC promotion algorithms and work on conveying creations to your audience. (AKA add the right kind of "flare").
This isn't just a problem with datapacks : if you look at the popular section of Texture Packs, half of it is 10-minute PvP recolor default edits. My biggest texture project has around 400 DLs, wheras my shit-tier PVP default edit i made in a few hours has more than 2K. It's strange how PMC really likes low effort stuff.
This is kinda facts; one of the only other places is Curseforge but that's mainly used for mods and has a much more strict process than PMC which is meant to be a more friendly place for us content creators.
i 100% agree as i had to go to page 17 to find any packs that where somewhat good the rest were ether bad low quality or small recipe, and veinminer packs
This is definitely a big problem, but I would hardly say that this problem is exclusive to PMC or to any type of media,
and whilst PMC's system has its flaws, it is far from the sole reason that people that put a lot of effort into things go unnoticed.
One reason that this thing happens is because people like familiarity - on youtube you're more likely to click on a video from a channel you know and love than one made by somebody you didn't even know existed until then, and the same applies to PMC and its content, though that part of it isn't that much of an issue. The main part of this is that people are more likely to click on and download something that links to something that links to (or is a direct recreation of) something from somewhere else that they know of. This issue mostly affects Maps and Skins.
The other big reason is demand - if people are not interested in what you make, then they're not going to download or favourite it. And when it comes to data packs, smaller packs that just do a specific function are favoured over larger multi-functional ones. The same goes for most types of content on PMC, the only exceptions I can think of are the two above, Maps and Skins.
Finally, you must remember that a vast majority of people who visit this site simply search for what they want, find it and leave until they want something else.
Making a system that could fix the problem entirely would be a miracle come true. Whilst it seems like bots are getting smarter and smarter, at their core they are still incredibly stupid, as the only things they can do are fetch and execute instructions, and they can not truly decide anything for themself. Quality is partially subjective, so it can never be measured be fully measured by a bot.
I'm not saying that PMC is at fault here, but I am saying that you can not blame them and only them
and whilst PMC's system has its flaws, it is far from the sole reason that people that put a lot of effort into things go unnoticed.
One reason that this thing happens is because people like familiarity - on youtube you're more likely to click on a video from a channel you know and love than one made by somebody you didn't even know existed until then, and the same applies to PMC and its content, though that part of it isn't that much of an issue. The main part of this is that people are more likely to click on and download something that links to something that links to (or is a direct recreation of) something from somewhere else that they know of. This issue mostly affects Maps and Skins.
The other big reason is demand - if people are not interested in what you make, then they're not going to download or favourite it. And when it comes to data packs, smaller packs that just do a specific function are favoured over larger multi-functional ones. The same goes for most types of content on PMC, the only exceptions I can think of are the two above, Maps and Skins.
Finally, you must remember that a vast majority of people who visit this site simply search for what they want, find it and leave until they want something else.
Making a system that could fix the problem entirely would be a miracle come true. Whilst it seems like bots are getting smarter and smarter, at their core they are still incredibly stupid, as the only things they can do are fetch and execute instructions, and they can not truly decide anything for themself. Quality is partially subjective, so it can never be measured be fully measured by a bot.
I'm not saying that PMC is at fault here, but I am saying that you can not blame them and only them
I understand where you're coming from but it's not an easy thing to address. People want what they want and data packers are delivering. Trends come and go. Easier to create packs are more accessible for new developers and everyone has to start somewhere. In addition, some of the best ideas can have simple solutions. Complexity doesn't always mean better and not all packs need to be game changing to be fun or accomplish it's intended goal and appeal to an audience.
On the other hand, complex / advanced content takes longer to develop and can also be more challenging to present to a viewer as well as intimidating to figure out. There's less developers that can produce elaborate packs and harder to get them popular. Some gain very loyal followings though and can last much longer than current trends.
I don't think you should be discouraged by stats or what others are doing or downloading. Just because a greater number of people want content that you prefer not to create doesn't mean the people that do download your content don't REALLY appreciate it. It's just that there's a greater number of people that want a silly pack vs something complex? It's tricky to put into words because I don't want to discourage either side from feeling appreciated because all of you are, just by different audiences.
I can't really get behind changing the default sort of data packs or any section to be anything other than "updated". This is what allows new / updated content creators to get discovered. If we were to change this, we're not, it would require us to favor established / curated creators which makes it harder and harder for new content creators to rise up.
I see that you've created a personal collection of your 8 greatest content packs. That's a nice way to cross promote.
If PMC was to create curated lists, it would be difficult to choose, stay on top of and it will ultimately upset many that don't make it or simply disagree with whoever is putting the lists together. So, we are left with algorithms to remove bias and provide options.
That said, I made some quick changes:
1) Data pack popular reel will get some oldies but goodies mixed in like we've had on texture packs for years. This means, "old" data packs that are still being updated can hit the popular reel again.
2) Best defaults to past 30 days instead of 24 hours. This won't really solve the "problem" of trends, I find trends interesting, but at least there's more content to browse through and a longer period of time for something to become popular. Viewers are of course welcome to change the time period or visit the time machine.
3) ??? Open to suggestions.
On the other hand, complex / advanced content takes longer to develop and can also be more challenging to present to a viewer as well as intimidating to figure out. There's less developers that can produce elaborate packs and harder to get them popular. Some gain very loyal followings though and can last much longer than current trends.
I don't think you should be discouraged by stats or what others are doing or downloading. Just because a greater number of people want content that you prefer not to create doesn't mean the people that do download your content don't REALLY appreciate it. It's just that there's a greater number of people that want a silly pack vs something complex? It's tricky to put into words because I don't want to discourage either side from feeling appreciated because all of you are, just by different audiences.
I can't really get behind changing the default sort of data packs or any section to be anything other than "updated". This is what allows new / updated content creators to get discovered. If we were to change this, we're not, it would require us to favor established / curated creators which makes it harder and harder for new content creators to rise up.
I see that you've created a personal collection of your 8 greatest content packs. That's a nice way to cross promote.
If PMC was to create curated lists, it would be difficult to choose, stay on top of and it will ultimately upset many that don't make it or simply disagree with whoever is putting the lists together. So, we are left with algorithms to remove bias and provide options.
That said, I made some quick changes:
1) Data pack popular reel will get some oldies but goodies mixed in like we've had on texture packs for years. This means, "old" data packs that are still being updated can hit the popular reel again.
2) Best defaults to past 30 days instead of 24 hours. This won't really solve the "problem" of trends, I find trends interesting, but at least there's more content to browse through and a longer period of time for something to become popular. Viewers are of course welcome to change the time period or visit the time machine.
3) ??? Open to suggestions.
When I used scratch.mit.edu a long time ago, they had 2 systems:
1. Front Page Featured: This is when the admins of scratch saw good content and put it on the front page. There was a thread where you can suggest projects to go on the front page
2. Weekly Curators: Each week, a person on PMC would choose 5 projects of their choice to go on the front page. These can be by any person and any project at all
these could fit nicely on PMC maybe. Another thing that might be cool is a Hype system. The more you are active on PMC, the more Hype you get. You can then give certain projects this Hype. Then, more hype will generally mean that it’s a good pack, essentially meaning more people will see it.
The reason why hype is a good idea, is because it is limited. You earn hype for your activity, similar to experience points. You can’t just hand them out all day unlimited, like diamonds and favourites.
You would also be able to attach hype to a comment, so it looks something like this:
The hype system would be a good way to show support to your favourite creators. It might need tweaking, but this would be a good idea. Lmk if I should make a ticket for this
1. Front Page Featured: This is when the admins of scratch saw good content and put it on the front page. There was a thread where you can suggest projects to go on the front page
2. Weekly Curators: Each week, a person on PMC would choose 5 projects of their choice to go on the front page. These can be by any person and any project at all
these could fit nicely on PMC maybe. Another thing that might be cool is a Hype system. The more you are active on PMC, the more Hype you get. You can then give certain projects this Hype. Then, more hype will generally mean that it’s a good pack, essentially meaning more people will see it.
The reason why hype is a good idea, is because it is limited. You earn hype for your activity, similar to experience points. You can’t just hand them out all day unlimited, like diamonds and favourites.
You would also be able to attach hype to a comment, so it looks something like this:
Wow, really good pack! Fits together nicely!
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The hype system would be a good way to show support to your favourite creators. It might need tweaking, but this would be a good idea. Lmk if I should make a ticket for this
I know this thread hasn't been active lately, but I'd still like to add my opinion:
Hype seems like an interesting concept, but I think it would still have the same problems. People creating datapacks with less effort could publish content more regularly, therefore they would be considered more active, get more hype and presumably give it to other trend creators' content.
Hype seems like an interesting concept, but I think it would still have the same problems. People creating datapacks with less effort could publish content more regularly, therefore they would be considered more active, get more hype and presumably give it to other trend creators' content.
04/01/2021 10:38 am
This reply was removed by the poster or a moderator.
Hi there! I feel the need to chime in because I personally write the weekly and wanted to provide some insight/feedback as well as toss some ideas out there.
As it is, I have a tough time featuring just one submission from each category. I am also probably not the best person to identify high effort but lesser known data packs as I am not a data pack creator. Unless, of course, the creator stated in their submission how long it took them to create their pack which is very rarely. I choose to feature content that is based on how well it is doing on PMC, as the Weekly highlights top submissions from each category for that given week. I typically sort by views, then downloads, then trending, then best... before picking one that isn't necessarily "first" when sorting, but one that is generally on the first or second... sometimes third page. Sometimes in the middle of the week I'll see a submission and add it to my draft, and never have to visit that specific section at the end of the week.
However, I'd really like to help promote the data packs in the weekly that many are saying need more attention and I've thought about it and am approaching you with this:
You mentioned "You can also make new write-ups, or allow creators' write-ups, for projects that are complicated and thus less likely to be popular." A little while ago, Hashs made a blog post featuring a data pack review. If any member would like to write a review (in the form of a blog post) of a data pack they feel needs more attention, I have no problem featuring it in the Weekly. I would just need a quick DM that included the link.
My next proposal would need a little more discussing on how to handle. If a small group of data pack creators (or even an individual data pack creator) wanted to take over the Featured Data Pack section of the weekly, I would be open it. A group of data pack creators might get a little messy, but could always take turns or work on it together, that part would be up to the group (maybe we could create a discord group chat for clear communication lines if this is the route we go?).This option would require a couple of conditions: As stated in my first paragraph, the weekly features submissions from that specific week so either you'd have to choose a pack from that week or I could continue to do that part and then let you (or group) pick another one to write about, that wasn't in that week time frame (ones that we are specifically saying are high quality but low attention). I'd prefer it to be a consistent weekly thing and the write up would have to be reviewed.
The benefit of my first proposal is that the author of the blog would receive diamonds, XP, etc whereas the second option, this wouldn't be the case.
Open to thoughts and suggestions :)
** Edited.
As it is, I have a tough time featuring just one submission from each category. I am also probably not the best person to identify high effort but lesser known data packs as I am not a data pack creator. Unless, of course, the creator stated in their submission how long it took them to create their pack which is very rarely. I choose to feature content that is based on how well it is doing on PMC, as the Weekly highlights top submissions from each category for that given week. I typically sort by views, then downloads, then trending, then best... before picking one that isn't necessarily "first" when sorting, but one that is generally on the first or second... sometimes third page. Sometimes in the middle of the week I'll see a submission and add it to my draft, and never have to visit that specific section at the end of the week.
However, I'd really like to help promote the data packs in the weekly that many are saying need more attention and I've thought about it and am approaching you with this:
You mentioned "You can also make new write-ups, or allow creators' write-ups, for projects that are complicated and thus less likely to be popular." A little while ago, Hashs made a blog post featuring a data pack review. If any member would like to write a review (in the form of a blog post) of a data pack they feel needs more attention, I have no problem featuring it in the Weekly. I would just need a quick DM that included the link.
My next proposal would need a little more discussing on how to handle. If a small group of data pack creators (or even an individual data pack creator) wanted to take over the Featured Data Pack section of the weekly, I would be open it. A group of data pack creators might get a little messy, but could always take turns or work on it together, that part would be up to the group (maybe we could create a discord group chat for clear communication lines if this is the route we go?).This option would require a couple of conditions: As stated in my first paragraph, the weekly features submissions from that specific week so either you'd have to choose a pack from that week or I could continue to do that part and then let you (or group) pick another one to write about, that wasn't in that week time frame (ones that we are specifically saying are high quality but low attention). I'd prefer it to be a consistent weekly thing and the write up would have to be reviewed.
The benefit of my first proposal is that the author of the blog would receive diamonds, XP, etc whereas the second option, this wouldn't be the case.
Open to thoughts and suggestions :)
** Edited.
04/01/2021 12:51 pm
This reply was removed by the poster or a moderator.
I was so caught up in thinking of how I could help regarding the current weekly, that I didn't address your suggestion of a separate weekly, biweekly, or monthly posts highlighting less popular content. I do like this idea, however I think a similar situation as option 2 in my reply above would be needed just due to the simple fact that I wouldn't have enough time to write additional articles. Maybe a monthly article I could squeeze in, but I can't say for sure as my day to day tasks change and sometimes I struggle with getting the weekly out on time.
You bring up several good points including the materialistic reward and click through rate. If we went the option of a separate monthly spotlight article that was written by a couple of members (not sure how we would pick said members...), an option to remedy both of these concerns would be to publish it under the PMC account with credit to the contributors. The PMC account submissions push to everyone on the site and would gain most attention. However, I can see this causing an issue with 1) people that don't necessarily want to read the article and 2) contributors wanting a little XP for their hard work (which of course is understandable).
Your last suggestion I find interesting because when I first dreamed up the Weekly, my ultimate vision was something similar to the digital magazines. Weekly's actually started out as wall posts, and then graduated to the forums. I could create something kind of similar but I'm pretty sure it would have to be off-site (like a pdf) which, not to get too technical, wouldn't be ideal for SEO. Perhaps I'll play around as the thought of this has me curious on what it would look like. :)
You bring up several good points including the materialistic reward and click through rate. If we went the option of a separate monthly spotlight article that was written by a couple of members (not sure how we would pick said members...), an option to remedy both of these concerns would be to publish it under the PMC account with credit to the contributors. The PMC account submissions push to everyone on the site and would gain most attention. However, I can see this causing an issue with 1) people that don't necessarily want to read the article and 2) contributors wanting a little XP for their hard work (which of course is understandable).
Your last suggestion I find interesting because when I first dreamed up the Weekly, my ultimate vision was something similar to the digital magazines. Weekly's actually started out as wall posts, and then graduated to the forums. I could create something kind of similar but I'm pretty sure it would have to be off-site (like a pdf) which, not to get too technical, wouldn't be ideal for SEO. Perhaps I'll play around as the thought of this has me curious on what it would look like. :)
Following the trend is a good idea, but I think a way to promote quality packs is also neccessary. As I mentioned in the comment below, mod showcase YouTubers like AsianHalfSquat and Boodlyneck do not come up with 50 videos of "Minecraft but..." mods or any other popular genres. A terminal to introduce fresh quality ideas is vital for the continuation of the community and the retention of interest. I don't want to live in a future where datapacks are synonymous to "challenge generators," and everybody is sick of them. We want people to create and enjoy datapacks just like how people enjoy and play modpacks. Again, following the trend is good, but a way to introduce more trends is also necessary. Sadly, the chance of YouTubers finding quality packs is like finding a needle in a haystack.
Thank you so much for taking the time to not only reply but to actually consider what I'm saying and make limited changes.
Being able to hit the popular reel more than once is a big thing. I feel that's the main thing I was asking for and that's a very important change; thanks for doing that.
The best change hasn't helped much so far because all of the big packs I'm concerned about were released more than 30 days ago. However it's still a meaningful change and will especially be once we push out some new content (which I should be doing soon™).
Again, I feel that the popular reel change is probably a significant enough change that it will be noticeable in due time. I like how it sounds on paper; we'll need to see it in practice to truly find out.
I've complained about other pack archetypes like recipe packs and they've died out over time, so I get what you're saying about trends. I'm obviously hoping that the "OP loot" trend dies out after the contest is over since so many of the packs are so similar, but given how recipe packs went it probably will happen.
As for the parts about having more dedicated fans, I've definitely seen this myself; my Discord server and the servers of other big pack makers (looking at you, Kano, ICY, Creeper) have seen people who will jump at the chance to try out a dev build or hear about future plans. I'd doubt "trendy" packmakers could say the same.
I understand the reasoning behind not changing the default sort from updated. Ideally I feel like the default page would be made up of an even mixture of less active, highly rated packs and recently updated packs, but I think we're close enough to that idea with the popular reel changes.
Once again, thank you for actually taking the time to read my post, respond, and make changes. This is very meaningful to myself and others and has restored my confidence in this site's ability to provide for our little community and listen to what we have to say.
Being able to hit the popular reel more than once is a big thing. I feel that's the main thing I was asking for and that's a very important change; thanks for doing that.
The best change hasn't helped much so far because all of the big packs I'm concerned about were released more than 30 days ago. However it's still a meaningful change and will especially be once we push out some new content (which I should be doing soon™).
Again, I feel that the popular reel change is probably a significant enough change that it will be noticeable in due time. I like how it sounds on paper; we'll need to see it in practice to truly find out.
I've complained about other pack archetypes like recipe packs and they've died out over time, so I get what you're saying about trends. I'm obviously hoping that the "OP loot" trend dies out after the contest is over since so many of the packs are so similar, but given how recipe packs went it probably will happen.
As for the parts about having more dedicated fans, I've definitely seen this myself; my Discord server and the servers of other big pack makers (looking at you, Kano, ICY, Creeper) have seen people who will jump at the chance to try out a dev build or hear about future plans. I'd doubt "trendy" packmakers could say the same.
I understand the reasoning behind not changing the default sort from updated. Ideally I feel like the default page would be made up of an even mixture of less active, highly rated packs and recently updated packs, but I think we're close enough to that idea with the popular reel changes.
Once again, thank you for actually taking the time to read my post, respond, and make changes. This is very meaningful to myself and others and has restored my confidence in this site's ability to provide for our little community and listen to what we have to say.
I've always wondered why my 6 hour old packs are getting featured on the popular reel even when they barely reached any meaningful milestones. I first thought it was to give my packs an initial boost of views, but that doesn't seem to work as intended. I even considered trying to figure out a strategy to find the optimal time to post and get the most out of the reel time, and the only logical solution I could think of was to stay up till 4am to post. (My time zone is UTC+9.)
Another thing I want to point out is the amount of YouTube video coverage datapacks get compared to mods. Take AsianHalfSquat or Boodlyneck for example. They are still showcasing new and interesting mods to this day, but never have I seen them say a word about datapacks. When I search "Minecraft Datapack on YouTube, the latest one I can find is from 2 weeks ago and others being 5 months, 10 months, or more than a year.
Although mods have been in the game for far longer, considering how datapacks were added in 17w43a, released on October 25th, 2017, with the proper promotion system, I'm sure that datapacks could've at least gotten twice as more coverage than what we get right now, but sadly, the only datapacks featured consistantly are "Minecraft But..." style challenges or ones featured in HermitCraft. Maybe Cursforge has a good strat on promoting mods in an efficient way, but considering how they named datapacks as "customization," I can't expect people to switch over to Curse.
Overall, other than PMC doing good at calling datapacks datapacks, the rest of the system is questionable and it really discourages both the creators and the YouTubers who have to rumage through low quality packs to find a gem. I guess the popular reel is kind of their attempt to fix this, but I'd firmly say that that failed miserably.
Another thing I want to point out is the amount of YouTube video coverage datapacks get compared to mods. Take AsianHalfSquat or Boodlyneck for example. They are still showcasing new and interesting mods to this day, but never have I seen them say a word about datapacks. When I search "Minecraft Datapack on YouTube, the latest one I can find is from 2 weeks ago and others being 5 months, 10 months, or more than a year.
Although mods have been in the game for far longer, considering how datapacks were added in 17w43a, released on October 25th, 2017, with the proper promotion system, I'm sure that datapacks could've at least gotten twice as more coverage than what we get right now, but sadly, the only datapacks featured consistantly are "Minecraft But..." style challenges or ones featured in HermitCraft. Maybe Cursforge has a good strat on promoting mods in an efficient way, but considering how they named datapacks as "customization," I can't expect people to switch over to Curse.
Overall, other than PMC doing good at calling datapacks datapacks, the rest of the system is questionable and it really discourages both the creators and the YouTubers who have to rumage through low quality packs to find a gem. I guess the popular reel is kind of their attempt to fix this, but I'd firmly say that that failed miserably.
Generally, there seem to be a lot more videos made for datapack CREATORS (like explanation/tutorial videos), than for datapack USERS, even though creating a datapack usually should be much harder than using it.
I really hope this will get more balanced in the future.
I really hope this will get more balanced in the future.
As someone who has both low and relatively high quality datapacks. I believe you see this the wrong way. The popular reel is favoring quantity over quality, but users themselves dont.
An average user will click on what seems to be a quality datapack. This can be compared to YouTube videos. Someone could clickbait and have a horrible video yet it gets millions of views, yet another video that has 20x the effort, barely gets recognised, reasoning being it is not as clickable as the former.
People will click on what they think they need in survival. As a user I dont know what ei "The Creeper's Code" does, yet I know exactly what the "512 blocks height" datapack is (i brought this up bc I made that datapack), irrelevant of how much effort was put into it. Speaking of which, on my 512 block height datapack, I spent way more time on the thumbnail and uploading/editing on PMC than I did changing the "code". I wanted to make sure what I am uploading is precentable and the player understands easily what I am giving. Nobody knows how much effort was put into a datapack, they will only find out once the datapack is played for some time, not while viewing the site unless it has been presented the right way.
I want to know your thoughts on this too
An average user will click on what seems to be a quality datapack. This can be compared to YouTube videos. Someone could clickbait and have a horrible video yet it gets millions of views, yet another video that has 20x the effort, barely gets recognised, reasoning being it is not as clickable as the former.
People will click on what they think they need in survival. As a user I dont know what ei "The Creeper's Code" does, yet I know exactly what the "512 blocks height" datapack is (i brought this up bc I made that datapack), irrelevant of how much effort was put into it. Speaking of which, on my 512 block height datapack, I spent way more time on the thumbnail and uploading/editing on PMC than I did changing the "code". I wanted to make sure what I am uploading is precentable and the player understands easily what I am giving. Nobody knows how much effort was put into a datapack, they will only find out once the datapack is played for some time, not while viewing the site unless it has been presented the right way.
I want to know your thoughts on this too
As to your more strong arguments AnDragon11, I agree that in the end it's just human nature to click on what catches your eye and that a lot of times effort will be overshadowed by appeal, although I do believe there's a fair share of users who look for more than just the first flashy thing they see. Well done.
The difference here is that as you stated, users can't even find quality packs because they're covered up by enormous quantities of low quality packs.
Its up to the publisher to make sure the user will download the pack. Catchy phrases, "poping" thumbnails, colorful/vivid images is what's gonna get the average user to click on the datapack whether we like it or not. A datapack is 40% content, 60% marketing (imo, not sure about the %, but both are high for sure). Also provide what is needed in the community. Some people may not like 40 dimensions, yet they will love to have simple recipes added. These are my observations at least
None of those matter if users don't see the pack to begin with.
There's a reason that users aren't going to see a pack, like AnDragon was just talking about. If I'm looking a for a datapack and I search for that, I'm going to see the one that looks the best and download it. It has very little to do with how much effort was put into a pack. Just because a pack has effort put into it doesn't make it instantly get downloaded 10 times faster than a different pack. For example: you can put 100 hours into a pack with thousands of changes but that still doesn't mean that another pack that makes a slight adjustment to the main game won't get more downloads, since it all comes down to what people want to see, effort doesn't equal downloads, and so treating it that way is the wrong mindset.
I believe you're wrong in calling out all users to be as simple minded as you described yourself to be. While effort does not always guarantee reward, (applies to the real world as well), if you direct effort towards the right direction such as the packs Hashs mentioned, you'll be rewarded. Same as real life; obviously people who do cheap things and, mind my language, "cheat the system" will sometimes move to the top, but so will those that demonstrate effort in their work.
Your argument that "you can put 100 hours into a pack with thousands of changes but that still doesn't mean that another pack that makes a slight adjustment to the main game won't get more downloads" has warrant obviously. Not everyone's looking for a mod like datapack. But not everyone's looking for a slight adjustment either "since it all comes down to what people want to see" like you said. Thus, if you show effort and make something different; people will want different things obviously but that doesn't mean they all want the first thing they see on the shelf. A more aware PMC user would look at alternatives first before choosing a datapack to their liking. Those that you described to be like yourself, ("I'm looking a for a datapack and I search for that, I'm going to see the one that looks the best and download it") either don't have time or aren't very aware, in both cases they're missing out although the former is obviously less on the fault of the user.
Another wild guess is that those users you describe to be like yourself are typically young users that don't know any better, in which case there's nothing we can do I suppose. In the end, AnDragon's arguments are really valid, and I'm really agreeing with that statement at the end, "Some people may not like 40 dimensions, yet they will love to have simple recipes added."
Much like what I said above, it's all about what people want, but unlike what you claim, effort does not have "very little to do" with the pack's success. Even some of the users in this comments section have commented regarding their struggles with finding the right pack, demonstrating that users don't just jump to the first thing they see.
It's always fascinating talking to interesting people like you, chazym. If you have discord, I'd love to talk it out with you.
Your argument that "you can put 100 hours into a pack with thousands of changes but that still doesn't mean that another pack that makes a slight adjustment to the main game won't get more downloads" has warrant obviously. Not everyone's looking for a mod like datapack. But not everyone's looking for a slight adjustment either "since it all comes down to what people want to see" like you said. Thus, if you show effort and make something different; people will want different things obviously but that doesn't mean they all want the first thing they see on the shelf. A more aware PMC user would look at alternatives first before choosing a datapack to their liking. Those that you described to be like yourself, ("I'm looking a for a datapack and I search for that, I'm going to see the one that looks the best and download it") either don't have time or aren't very aware, in both cases they're missing out although the former is obviously less on the fault of the user.
Another wild guess is that those users you describe to be like yourself are typically young users that don't know any better, in which case there's nothing we can do I suppose. In the end, AnDragon's arguments are really valid, and I'm really agreeing with that statement at the end, "Some people may not like 40 dimensions, yet they will love to have simple recipes added."
Much like what I said above, it's all about what people want, but unlike what you claim, effort does not have "very little to do" with the pack's success. Even some of the users in this comments section have commented regarding their struggles with finding the right pack, demonstrating that users don't just jump to the first thing they see.
It's always fascinating talking to interesting people like you, chazym. If you have discord, I'd love to talk it out with you.
This is flawed in every. single. section of content on PMC. I am a guy tha tgets around with my stuff, I usually make builds, skins, textures, models and I work with datapack creators to make their dreams a reality. But most often than not it just won't be shown. It's mostly in the beginning and it dies out once the quality of the content is getting good.
This is one of the reasons why I'm branching out to other spaces- Just to make my presence a little better known and I get some credit for what I do.
I was getting quite sparse amounts off appreciation for my content- So at a point I just thought I was bad, but the truth is that anyone I show anything of what I've made from discord would hire my skills in the blinks of seconds-
The tabs for best and most downloaded on all genres seem to barely even change- And I know a lot of great skins that dissappear in the shadows and are overshadowed by 10 year old uploads-
This is just plain wrong, and it should be fixed.
This is one of the reasons why I'm branching out to other spaces- Just to make my presence a little better known and I get some credit for what I do.
I was getting quite sparse amounts off appreciation for my content- So at a point I just thought I was bad, but the truth is that anyone I show anything of what I've made from discord would hire my skills in the blinks of seconds-
The tabs for best and most downloaded on all genres seem to barely even change- And I know a lot of great skins that dissappear in the shadows and are overshadowed by 10 year old uploads-
This is just plain wrong, and it should be fixed.
