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height limit breakable?

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Pirate_Ray's Avatar Pirate_Ray
Level 32 : Artisan Dragon
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only start reading if you like to read long long pieces of text:

well to start off, i am starting a discussion on breaking the height limit, it has already gone from 128 to 256 and seeing how bits work the logical step seems 512 right?

well no, i would love to see an infinite world that is really infinite and not just horizontal... and theoretically it could be done easily (well actually not that easily) to, just needs some coding.

generating higher worlds could be like the horizontal generation but then also vertically, the only thing that needs to be done is instead of extending the current chunks, chop them in pieces and stack them:

currently chunks are rectangular blocks of 16x16x256 loaded next to each other in a certain cylindrical area around you which makes it possible to go infinite horizontally since not all chunks are loading, loaded and kept loaded at the same time, if you make these chunks for lets say 16x16x16, or 16x16x32, or 16x16x64 and stack em on top of each other both downwards as upwards, you could go infinitely horizontally as well as vertically, chunks get smaller but more numerous but since currently your PC only loads a certain amount of chunks around you, the load wouldn't be different.

but instead of a cylindrical loaded area of chunks sized 16x16x256 you would have a smaller spherical or square (whichever one is easiest to compute/code) chunks loaded area sized 16x16x16/32/64 around you.

your computer keeps the same load on it as it is now just the saves would get bigger since every chunk square you go down/up would add a bit of extra info, same goes for horizontal as it is now, on top of that most chunks aren't even that memory intensive unless a player starts doing funky stuff on it.

world generation could be like(imagine the middle of the world being 0, or whats currently 64) at 0, level generation is as it is now normal land, going from 0 to +x just adds chunks filled with air, after a certain amount of upward chunks, say 30 you could have a new generation of landscape... sky-lands.... same goes for going down... after traveling -x from 0 lets also say about 30 chunks you could have the generator change from regular land to nether generation, this would also solve having to build portals to a separate world file... portals would still be used as they are used now, just in one single world (somewhat like the ancient-gates plugin for bukkit but without putting in codes)

is this really this hard to code (just asking)?
step 1: splitting chunks to easy manageable pieces/chunks (not that hard)
step 2a: stacking them on top of each other when/while going up (not that hard)
step 2b: altering the world saving method so it memorizes up-going vertical chunk locations together with horizontal locations. (hard)
step 3a: stacking them underneath of each other when/while going down (not that hard)
step 3b: altering the world saving method so it memorizes down-going vertical chunk locations together with horizontal locations. (hard)
step 4: adjust the world generation to generate different types of biomes at certain heights (example):

space.... aka void layer... aka air blocks which will kill you since void is not possible...
the layers where the end world is located... enderman and their little moon :P
air layers ... nothing here but air.
sky-dwelling islands... aka sky-land as notch's first attempt at it.
air layers ... nothing here but air.
normal land generating layers...
some more normal underground land generating layers, with gigantic caves perhaps.
even more digging layers....
nether generating layers....
lava generating layers to simulate a planet core which will kill you.

in principle a player could set max depth and max height and at those heights/depth you either find lava or killing void to end going up or down its up to the player to decide the altitude....

inspiration needed? cubic chunks mod and mineup... outdated but very interesting:
www.minecraftforum.net/topic/437213-worlds-how-to-have-higher-deeper-worlds

i hope someone understands this, it requires a rewrite of the world generation, detection and saving methods and thats it. (no i am not a coder but i do know how stuff works... just cant code it) i hope this brings someone to thought.

EDIT:

idea from: Xistence
flag empty or solely air (perhaps water to?) filled chunks for a decreased load, only to be loaded when a player enters the chunk.

idea from: Randomness3333
underworld to nether border: add an extra layer off obsidian in between to prevent to easy acces, must blend in as though if it were natural so not a completly solid x thick plaque

idea from... me:
6 stage world generation being nether, underworld, overworld, skylands, empty air and end. seamlessly integrating into each other at border areas (just a random blend of both generators) allowing for more precise, good looking and stable world generation.
Creditminecraftpokekai for the blog idea.
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4 Update Logs

Update #4 : by Pirate_Ray 12/30/2012 1:27:00 pmDec 30th, 2012

added ideas from 3rds to the general idea
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Pirate_Ray
01/21/2019 3:02 pm
Level 32 : Artisan Dragon
Pirate_Ray's Avatar
so... as of 1.13 they actually started loading chunks in a 16x16x16 format as opposed to loading the entire 16x16x256 chunk, its a start, but even after 6+ years, still a long long ways off from getting anywhere like "unlimited" or generally higher worlds, we'll probably only see this particular one ever happening if we get the modding API and only if modders go to town reworking the entire game to make this happen...

kind of like how modders went to town and added the aether realm (Aether II: Genesis of the void) and reworked many things... but grander, no portals required (only for convenience...)
1
Stronger_222
06/28/2018 7:57 am
Level 1 : New Miner
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How Do You Download This?
1
Liciors
12/30/2013 1:22 am
Level 2 : Apprentice Miner
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You dislike the idea because... pls explain

Explanation:

K, I know I'm pretty damn late, but lemme give you a devs' (<---I use that loosely... I do PHP (other languages implied[html, js...]), MySQL, Unity based C#) point of veiw.

So, although the idea you put forth is pretty good (gotta give you that cause it's true), it's not all that possible...

Here are your steps:

step 1: splitting chunks to easy manageable pieces/chunks (not that hard) - Actually very hard to do on randomly generated terrain
step 2a: stacking them on top of each other when/while going up (not that hard) - Can be hard depending on what is being rendered/generated
step 2b: altering the world saving method so it memorizes up-going vertical chunk locations together with horizontal locations. (hard) - "Hard" is a complete understatement here
step 3a: stacking them underneath of each other when/while going down (not that hard) - Refer to 2a
step 3b: altering the world saving method so it memorizes down-going vertical chunk locations together with horizontal locations. (hard) - Refer to 2b
step 4: adjust the world generation to generate different types of biomes at certain heights - Right now, these "Biomes" are actually separate save files, each unique in their own right. This can be hard or easy depending on how Mojang made the save files work

Weird font change...

See, the problem is, this would rework the game entirely. The renderer would have to be remade from scratch, the world generator would have to be remade from scratch, the storage system would have to be remade... From scratch...
It would take a hell of a lot more work then you think it will to make the game like that. Although the area of a chunk would be smaller, there are MORE of them to render/generate/save, increasing the load because, despite the smaller area, more would be needed to fill in what would have previously been already loaded. So, the overall load would increase as there is more for it to handle.

Since this relates to memory lets talk about that. Most minecraft users set their max RAM to the default 1 gb, sometimes because they don't know how to use .bat java commands, sometimes they don't care, or sometimes both. What you suggest is more chunks, but smaller areas. That doesn't help the RAM. More chucks = More numbers for the RAM to deal with. See, right now, if you have 4 chunks in a square, there will be a number assigned to each chunk, which places that chunk in the correct position along the X, Z axis. Adding a 3rd dimension would not only A) complicate things a lot, but B) increase the amount of RAM needed. Take for example the 4 chunks. Chunk 1 is located at X=0, Z=0, 2 at X=9, Z=9, and so on... But what you suggest is adding more to that... Those 4 chunks would be broken into 64 separate chunks, each of which with it's own unique coordinate, each with its own blocks... That is a dramatic increase in the amount of things in RAM storage. I could go on, but I wish not to as the problems would keep arising the deeper I go.

So, please, unless you have ACTUALLY tried this and ACTUALLY have coded in a 3D environment, do not say you know how it works... Just makes you seem like an idiot (to people who HAVE tried and DO code in 3D environments).

I will say this though: I do wish for a larger height limit (I build NASA missions every now and then, but have to scale them a lot to make them look distant), and I do like the idea of a seamless transition between realms. Just the way your approaching it is not optimal.
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Pirate_Ray
01/17/2014 7:52 am
Level 32 : Artisan Dragon
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hello,

thank you for your detailed explanation, and also, a late comment is better then no comment at all.
i appreciate it.

i know this is pretty much a rewrite of the generation and saving methods as is, however attempts have been made and have been successful albeit it back in beta. upon these successes could be built.

you also stated that more smaller chunks would add more to the load in general due to more coordinations being added and loaded in the memory, this is correct, but depending on how the chunks are loaded in and saved altogether, it does not necessarily have to lead to an increased ram usage, that depends entirely on the efficiency of the system used.
and i offered 16x chunks for i found that earlier mods that tried this approach preferred this 16x sized chunks, bigger chunks could be used if wanted/needed.

also i may seem like an idiot, but i simply do not care, i have some friends that do coding and helped me in the past as i am not a coder, but i know what i am talking about, or at least a basic viewpoint, i agree my statements behind the steps are hideously inadequate, but that doesnt matter, i build upon proven ground, the problem currently is,we are in the present, the mods and chunks of coding i am talking about rely on older systems and are horribly outdated sadly.

i and friends know it is possible, and so do some other people, but the initial builds and the fine-tuning of this new 3d system will however be a complete nightmare and take ages.

but, while i was hoping for a mod for minecraft a game that has a somewhat similar concept came out, starmade, this game also runs in Java, and although it uses a completely different system (as you said a entirely rewritten generation and saving engine) it does provide a complete 3d experience. therefore this is my last message on PMC as i migrated to starmade for it suits my needs.

i only replied to this to say thank you, since i appreciate the comment, and to throw out some of my thoughts(i forgot but i think most of this has come to attention on the forum).

i wish you good luck and happy crafting :)
1
Pirate_Ray
12/30/2012 3:48 pm
Level 32 : Artisan Dragon
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Redirect to the forum, please add your input there:

http://www.planetminecraft.com/forums/height-limit-breakable-t200854.html
1
Xistence
12/30/2012 12:54 pm
Level 14 : Journeyman Toast
Xistence's Avatar
This is actually been an idea for quite a while, along many mod developers, and average players alike. One such mod (far outdated now) had actually changed the chunk system to be almost like this, I believe you sited it in the forum post, so I won't go into detail on that, but if I remember correctly, it needed not much, but a bit more RAM due to the shear number of chunks being loaded, (because number counts almost as much in size) due to the fact that different things are processed at different times, because multitasking small bits of data by the hundreds back in the day, was just a dream, some of the older computer users in minecraft (the ones that have the lowest settings possible and receive still under 30 FPS) couldn't even use that mod, due to the fact it needed to load hundreds of tiny chunks, instead of dozens of large ones. Although, this idea is a common one, the way you went about it was nice, seems a bit more rounded than the old mod. I think it'd be a welcomed advancement in minecraft if some good modders come together and bring it altogether. Although it would be highly incompatible with any terrain mods, due to it having to definitely edit base classes, I think this would be great. I could also see this effecting mob spawning slightly, horizonatally wouldn't change, but vertically ehhh. Could be iffy.

Edit: Oh also, maybe a chunk flagging system, that if the chunk is filled with nothing but air, it has a "Blank" flag, and therefore the client has no need to load that chunk, reducing load slightly, and it would look as it is just air anyway, and when within a chunk of that chunk, or if the flag changes, or if any chunks near it are ticked, let it be loaded aswell, (to accommodate airship mods and such, where blocks/entities are flying about, and require the chunk to be loaded before the player arrives).
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Pirate_Ray
12/30/2012 1:16 pm
Level 32 : Artisan Dragon
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ah, very nice post.

chunk flagging, well i'll be damned that sounds great why didnt i think of that :P even less things to load. i knew this was around for quite some time, i even dug up that mod, or mods you spoke of which i did link in the forum, but noone actually explained what where and how it should be and if they did just pieces, i tried to list it all at once.

as for having the same load or slightly more ram needed agreed, that is if you keep the radius the same, make the radius of loading chunks slightly smaller like render distance and voila, less load better game.

as for modders picking this up.... id welcome that... use the old mod and current game as a base and continue on that base eventually proposing it to notch himself... or jeb XD....

lastly i feel sad for people who have pc's of the 90's and alike but they shouldn't complain and instead just buy a new pc (just 500 dollar for a compatible system seems fair), this isnt a game that is to be taken lightly despite its deceptive looks :).
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Pirate_Ray
12/30/2012 11:20 am
Level 32 : Artisan Dragon
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replaced image with a better one.
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l_Pro_Assassin
12/30/2012 8:26 am
Level 44 : Master Enderdragon
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I recommend fixing the grammar and spelling in this, fixing up all the broken BBCode and removing all the unnecessary smiley faces.
1
Pirate_Ray
12/30/2012 8:48 am
Level 32 : Artisan Dragon
Pirate_Ray's Avatar
thank you for pointing out the grammar.
I tried adjusting my grammar and i hope it helped, but since i am not english, i am dutch, don't expect miracles please.
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