5
҉ ΨΨ~Debate Pvp / 1.9 Vs 1.8~ΨΨ ҉
Nightshade73---------------------------------------------------
I declare a debate, 1.9+ combat Vs 1.8-
----------------------------------------------------
I shall start off this debate by laying down the following... I advocate for 1.9+ combat, as I believe it require's more skills and combat awareness, and provides the shield to further add complexity to that of war.
Why does it require more skill?
It does so, because in 1.8- combat is restrained to 3 major things.. Jitterclick, Strafe, and combos.
While 1.9 focuses more on, Hit timing, Dodging, block timing, maneuver strafes, and enhanced archery.
I declare a debate, 1.9+ combat Vs 1.8-
----------------------------------------------------
I shall start off this debate by laying down the following... I advocate for 1.9+ combat, as I believe it require's more skills and combat awareness, and provides the shield to further add complexity to that of war.
Why does it require more skill?
It does so, because in 1.8- combat is restrained to 3 major things.. Jitterclick, Strafe, and combos.
While 1.9 focuses more on, Hit timing, Dodging, block timing, maneuver strafes, and enhanced archery.
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90
4
1.9+ is much better as it takes timing and skill meanwhile in 1.8 all you do is click m1 as fast as you can while running in circles around your opponent and eventually somebody gets a lag spike or someone joins in and one person dies. it is 100% a game of chance unless somebody is so new to minecraft they don't know how to hit.
2
I agree with you that 1.8 is extremely reliant on Jitterclicking and circle strafes, but there is still skill involved and I don't believe that can be argued.
1.9 is still better
invite some people to the discussion, I'm really curious as to what some people will come up with to defend it, and I want to debate.
1.9 is still better
invite some people to the discussion, I'm really curious as to what some people will come up with to defend it, and I want to debate.
1
Assuming it is a game of chance, then how is it possible for one person to be bad and another to be good?
1
Ya pretty clearly disproved your own logic here lol.
1
How say you?
1
Bump?
;-;
;-;
1
I wonder, Is there actually a rule against bumping threads?
IV seen threads where the guy jut like posts a comment 100 times every like 5 minuts...
IV seen threads where the guy jut like posts a comment 100 times every like 5 minuts...
1
I think the actual rule is a bump per day, though that may just apply to servers. Either way, you'll be seen, if the appropriate people care to look. In this system, I'm not sure bumping is even way too effective.
1
Yeah, I had a small conversation with Karth about it and then went on to read the rules for the forums.
It states that we can bump the server 1 per day after 24 hours of the forums being comepletly "Dead"
So I can basically only reply to posts, unless there are no posts for 24 hours, then I am allowed to bump it on the forums.
I dont think bumping helps too much either, but I still want to do it, as I have not been able to debate it with anyone yet.. everyone on pmc likes 1.9 ;-;
anyone I invite that likes 1.8 better doesnt join ;-;
It states that we can bump the server 1 per day after 24 hours of the forums being comepletly "Dead"
So I can basically only reply to posts, unless there are no posts for 24 hours, then I am allowed to bump it on the forums.
I dont think bumping helps too much either, but I still want to do it, as I have not been able to debate it with anyone yet.. everyone on pmc likes 1.9 ;-;
anyone I invite that likes 1.8 better doesnt join ;-;
1
Everyone that cares to answer* likes 1.9+.
There's plenty of server owners and people who lurk to get staff in the servers section who either miss this thread or are refusing to reply to it, that are fond of using 1.8/1.8 combat.
There's plenty of server owners and people who lurk to get staff in the servers section who either miss this thread or are refusing to reply to it, that are fond of using 1.8/1.8 combat.
1
Some personal Dms I got to add the the board:
Dread: 1.9 because I lost my 1.8 PvP skills long ago
Woody: 1.9 is good
Aqua: 1.9 pls
Firebird: and 1.9
Jay_Blaze: 1.i9!
BenEnder: 1.9 FTW!
RollingZerO's: ye I like booty
Strike: I dont really pvp anymore, So I dont care...
Dread: 1.9 because I lost my 1.8 PvP skills long ago
Woody: 1.9 is good
Aqua: 1.9 pls
Firebird: and 1.9
Jay_Blaze: 1.i9!
BenEnder: 1.9 FTW!
RollingZerO's: ye I like booty
Strike: I dont really pvp anymore, So I dont care...
3
tbh i prefer 1.9 as it makes combat overall challenging you have to think about when you should attack how you should run in and what to do not to mention all the new arrows this probably made a lot of cheaters freak out as well lol bottom-line 1.9 its not just click to win anymore
lol and i was just about to make a similar tread
lol and i was just about to make a similar tread
2
Maaaan, so many people in my dms and on the thread telling me 1.9 is better...
But Every time I join a pvp server or faction server with 1.8 still installed they tell me im nieve and live under a rock for thinking 1.9 is better and that people actually play it..
Usualy I win with debate (if they let me actually speak to them) but... FR im thinking now I should just make a poll with 1.9 vs 1.8 combat so I can just send that to them every time its brought up..
But Every time I join a pvp server or faction server with 1.8 still installed they tell me im nieve and live under a rock for thinking 1.9 is better and that people actually play it..
Usualy I win with debate (if they let me actually speak to them) but... FR im thinking now I should just make a poll with 1.9 vs 1.8 combat so I can just send that to them every time its brought up..
1
lol that would be a cool idea pvp servers HATE 1.9 pvp they are also the same people who dont like minercraft updates saying its making the game bad recently i had a debate with someone that said terracotta blocks have ruined minercaft i guess people just dont like change but idk when they will start to implement it the combat update to pvp servers
1
'You have to think about how you attack'- Not really, only requirement is 'can I hit this person when I click'? If yes, move forward and click. If no, don't click. If you bring it down to the basics, its still the exact same logic- Just 'clickspam' is gone.
2
1.9 brought variety. See it this way. The ones who wanted this kind of system can use it, the ones who don't, just don't. It's the beautiful way Minecraft works, they don't force you to use the latest update. 1.9 just gave people the option to use it, it's in no way mandatory.
1
Im at the upmost agreement,
Minecraft is free to play in any way you feel you want to play it, and that option is present in practically every (square) inch of the game allowing it to be optimised to your upmost enjoyment.
Pvp included..
But somtimes its good to have a standard on things, and when it comes to combat in this game both versions in my experiance require a differnt skill set and its hard to maintain both. Obviously custom servers not included as they are but unique, but as it comes to the basic 1.8 Vs 1.9 systems in default minecraft, I would still like to see a more general skill set between all players rather than a major devide between people that play 1.8, and 1.9...
I still like to play both on occation, but iv lost most of my strafing and cobo abilitys in turn for 1.9's new strafes iv grown accustom to because i prefer it more.
Minecraft is free to play in any way you feel you want to play it, and that option is present in practically every (square) inch of the game allowing it to be optimised to your upmost enjoyment.
Pvp included..
But somtimes its good to have a standard on things, and when it comes to combat in this game both versions in my experiance require a differnt skill set and its hard to maintain both. Obviously custom servers not included as they are but unique, but as it comes to the basic 1.8 Vs 1.9 systems in default minecraft, I would still like to see a more general skill set between all players rather than a major devide between people that play 1.8, and 1.9...
I still like to play both on occation, but iv lost most of my strafing and cobo abilitys in turn for 1.9's new strafes iv grown accustom to because i prefer it more.
1
From my competative standpoint at least.
1
Mojang also implemented this quite well. Since it's not mandatory to update, people won't leave because of an update immediately. Because updates keep going, it becomes more and more attractive to update eventually. Meanwhile, users can let it sink for a while and evaluate again.
Compare the standpoints now with when it first came out. People are way more relaxed and cool with the change now than it used to be. I think this will eventually become a standard much like we accept horses now.
This is something we don't often see with other games e.g. on Steam.
Compare the standpoints now with when it first came out. People are way more relaxed and cool with the change now than it used to be. I think this will eventually become a standard much like we accept horses now.
This is something we don't often see with other games e.g. on Steam.
1
Iv met many people that dont support 1.9, and still main 1.8
Why are none on pmc to debate me? ;-;
Why are none on pmc to debate me? ;-;
3
i like 1.9 because it means i don't die as much XD
in 1.8 it's all about who can click the fastest and who has the better gear, whereas in 1.9, it takes more skill
#1.9FTW
in 1.8 it's all about who can click the fastest and who has the better gear, whereas in 1.9, it takes more skill
#1.9FTW
1
Before someone argues
"How do you die less in somthing that requires more skill?"
I shall unleash my premptive COUNTER ARGUMENT!! (against myself)
Is that since 1.9 holds more factors to take into account when in combat, and it most certainly in my opinion takes more skill, their are less people that match up to this skill allowing you to get more hits, making it seemingly easier for people who can actually time their hits to get kills against those who do not.
"How do you die less in somthing that requires more skill?"
I shall unleash my premptive COUNTER ARGUMENT!! (against myself)
Is that since 1.9 holds more factors to take into account when in combat, and it most certainly in my opinion takes more skill, their are less people that match up to this skill allowing you to get more hits, making it seemingly easier for people who can actually time their hits to get kills against those who do not.
1
I die less because i'm actually good at it XD
1
Yet to get a guy to rep 1.8
3
Here's another post saying 1.9+ requires more grey matter to use and that skill can be better applied to 1.9+ combat as compared to 1.8.
My theory is that 1.9+ combat makes people think and invalidates the clickclickclickclick philosophy that minecraft players have had with PVP for years. The change forces them to PVP differently, and they don't feel like adapting.
Besides simply being too lazy/disinterested in learning the new system, I haven't heard of a viable 1.8 and before defense in regards to skill.
Perhaps servers retain 1.8 PVP for this exact reason - it doesn't take as much skill, and is thus more approachable to PVPers and gets people into the action quicker. Less thought, more clicking. Sounds suitable given the community trends.
My theory is that 1.9+ combat makes people think and invalidates the clickclickclickclick philosophy that minecraft players have had with PVP for years. The change forces them to PVP differently, and they don't feel like adapting.
Besides simply being too lazy/disinterested in learning the new system, I haven't heard of a viable 1.8 and before defense in regards to skill.
Perhaps servers retain 1.8 PVP for this exact reason - it doesn't take as much skill, and is thus more approachable to PVPers and gets people into the action quicker. Less thought, more clicking. Sounds suitable given the community trends.
1
As a small side defense to 1.8, because I used to play it all the time... It does require practice / experience to be actually good at it. A lot of people play 1.8 (still) where they just walk at you and maybe do some left to right strafing while clicking as fast as they can... The skill sense to 1.8 really out of my own experience resides in being able to land combos and keep up the strafe.
Combos are hard to explain if you don't already know what they are, but its practically part of the old game mechanic where you would "Lock" someone from hitting you at a certain distance because your hits register first, due to completing a certain type of strafe and landing a hit around the same time.
To my extent of pvping this way for years, that is typically the only Skill involved except learning to click faster...
When I switched to 1.9 however, and it took me about 2 weeks to get used to...
It requires a lot more game sense as you actually have to think about you and your enemy's move in a short amount of time, while list timing you and your opponents strikes / crits (at base gameplay swords only). And that's only the real basics of fighting in 1.9, you can take into account the high multitude of different strafes and techniques you can use to unlock advantage over your opponent.
Combos are hard to explain if you don't already know what they are, but its practically part of the old game mechanic where you would "Lock" someone from hitting you at a certain distance because your hits register first, due to completing a certain type of strafe and landing a hit around the same time.
To my extent of pvping this way for years, that is typically the only Skill involved except learning to click faster...
When I switched to 1.9 however, and it took me about 2 weeks to get used to...
It requires a lot more game sense as you actually have to think about you and your enemy's move in a short amount of time, while list timing you and your opponents strikes / crits (at base gameplay swords only). And that's only the real basics of fighting in 1.9, you can take into account the high multitude of different strafes and techniques you can use to unlock advantage over your opponent.
2
I would not argue 1.8 and prior is no skill at all; but I would say there's more one must keep in mind to 1.9+ era. And yes, I was aware of those tactics, during the time I did get vested in PVP (not very long, it bored me quickly compared to games with far superior PVP mechanics for my tastes).
Another angle, which I haven't even touched into yet, is that pvp hacks could sometimes be difficult to notice (at the very least, they weren't uncommon in open servers). In 1.9+, I've found them to be less of an issue. Perhaps it's just because most of the people who were inclined to cheat on prior versions don't bother with 1.9+, but either way, it's a far less open issue than when I was more actively working with servers and in a position to actually monitor people for illegitimate pvp. Killaura and things making the mouse snap towards a player are fairly simple to detect; clickspam bots, not quite as much, and even some of the smarter aimbots.
People just haven't 'broken' 1.9+ pvp as much. Yet is probably the best word :p
Another angle, which I haven't even touched into yet, is that pvp hacks could sometimes be difficult to notice (at the very least, they weren't uncommon in open servers). In 1.9+, I've found them to be less of an issue. Perhaps it's just because most of the people who were inclined to cheat on prior versions don't bother with 1.9+, but either way, it's a far less open issue than when I was more actively working with servers and in a position to actually monitor people for illegitimate pvp. Killaura and things making the mouse snap towards a player are fairly simple to detect; clickspam bots, not quite as much, and even some of the smarter aimbots.
People just haven't 'broken' 1.9+ pvp as much. Yet is probably the best word :p
1
1 word: Regen. There's also plenty of other hacks that still work in 1.9, but yeah- Hacking just isnt as prevalent to some degree.
1
Thats probably due to better anti-cheat development aswell.
I use spartan on my server and it recently got Machine-learning (petty AI (still AI)).
I use spartan on my server and it recently got Machine-learning (petty AI (still AI)).
1
Movement is a relevant skill, for pot / other gamemodes of PvP with secondaries thats a skill, aim is a lot more necessary in 1.8, etc.
1
Where are the 1.8 defendents!! :OOO
1
I have found someone willing to defend 1.8. Watch it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkbM69jtsYs
Nightshade1 second ago
My analysis of the video:
-------------------------------------------------
-Too slow
-It does have more factors and is more dynamic so it takes more skill, like the damage based on the attack rate (2:20)
~Its not as intesnse or exhilarating
-Timmed clicking is boring
~Clicking fast is why I play
-(3:30) It might take more skill, Its just not as exhilarating. People don't like if its slower paced
-(5:40) I personaly believe its alot less fun and fast paste than 1.8
-(7:20) Its not that its less skillfull, Its actually probabbly more skillfull, I just think its less fun to play.
Pretty much the entire time you just said. "I don't find timing hits fun, I like to spam. I think its too slow paced"
-------------------------------------------------
So my counter to that would be, that I disagree. As a Vet of both 1.8 and 1.9 pvp I believe 1.9 pvp is actually Faster and more decisive than pvp in 1.8.
As the new mechanics require and provide a multitude of new options that were unavailable in the previous system such as: Dodging, Timed (not just yours but your also opponents) hits / blocks...And the wide variety of new strafing techniques to achieve victory, rather than going in for a combo or retreating out of one like it was in the old system.
Putting new plays on the table practically after every motion or decision you make in game, meaning you have a lot on your mind... I actually have to analyse my opponents as I fight them, rather than previously where I would just out strafe and out click them.
Really, I have never had a battle in 1.9 That has lasted longer than a minute, and the better you are and y our opponent is at it... just makes it that much shorter. The only time Iv had Long battles has been using bows, and bows only. Because shooting people with a week bow they can easily take cover and eat to heal up... making it last forever XD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkbM69jtsYs
Nightshade1 second ago
My analysis of the video:
-------------------------------------------------
-Too slow
-It does have more factors and is more dynamic so it takes more skill, like the damage based on the attack rate (2:20)
~Its not as intesnse or exhilarating
-Timmed clicking is boring
~Clicking fast is why I play
-(3:30) It might take more skill, Its just not as exhilarating. People don't like if its slower paced
-(5:40) I personaly believe its alot less fun and fast paste than 1.8
-(7:20) Its not that its less skillfull, Its actually probabbly more skillfull, I just think its less fun to play.
Pretty much the entire time you just said. "I don't find timing hits fun, I like to spam. I think its too slow paced"
-------------------------------------------------
So my counter to that would be, that I disagree. As a Vet of both 1.8 and 1.9 pvp I believe 1.9 pvp is actually Faster and more decisive than pvp in 1.8.
As the new mechanics require and provide a multitude of new options that were unavailable in the previous system such as: Dodging, Timed (not just yours but your also opponents) hits / blocks...And the wide variety of new strafing techniques to achieve victory, rather than going in for a combo or retreating out of one like it was in the old system.
Putting new plays on the table practically after every motion or decision you make in game, meaning you have a lot on your mind... I actually have to analyse my opponents as I fight them, rather than previously where I would just out strafe and out click them.
Really, I have never had a battle in 1.9 That has lasted longer than a minute, and the better you are and y our opponent is at it... just makes it that much shorter. The only time Iv had Long battles has been using bows, and bows only. Because shooting people with a week bow they can easily take cover and eat to heal up... making it last forever XD
2
(Same video comment section)
Pikachu Clicks19 hours ago
Anyone who says 1.9 takes more skill is only saying that, because they can't come to terms with the fact that becoming good at a game takes actual time and effort. They like being able to join a game and immediately be "good" comparatively to other players. All the 1.9 combat system did was reduce the skill-gap, and everyone knows that. Even Mojang knows that, and has publicly admitted to it. I emailed mojang about it within a few weeks of the update coming out, and support literally said "can you specifically describe what parts of the update you don't like, and why? Our development team has put in a lot of work to making sure the game is as fair as possible to all players of all skill levels." The entire goal was to make it easier for younger and newer players to do well. They didn't "add strategy" as some people are saying, all they did was take an enormous amount of skill out of the game so that 9 year olds can have a chance. In fact, I posted again tweeting at a Mojang staff member that the system is silly and why, and her response was "I agree!" The only people trying to argue that 1.9 takes more skill is just the absolute imbeciles that can't accept the fact that being bad at something exists. Actual PvPers know it takes no skill, and so does Mojang. This is the twitter conversation btw. https://twitter.com/Chupacaubrey/status/929781647397961728
~Me right now~
I Just read it:
"If you have better gear, you will win the fight every time, and otherwise, you'll lose every time. All that matters is being able to aim, which is extremely easy to do, so the skill-gap is pretty much gone."
That is just but one example from the text, he claims that 1.9 is NOT as skilled and is more actually a trade off for people who are bad at pvp.
But playing as one who has been pvping as well since 1.2 and still continues to play and has transferred to 1.9+, I can say that this is way far from the truth.
What I think is happening, is that people who play 1.8 don't even try. Don't even try to give the new combat system a chance to experience it.
Because I played so much pvp and factions practically since I joined minecraft, It took me some time to get used to and understand the new system... So I understand where he is coming from but I wholesomely believe he hasn't made much progress at all in even attempting to learn the new system.
In fact, I believe when taking his argument into account... its quite the opposite.
I believe 1.9 DID close the skill gap... (wait for it)
People that join can "Immediately be good" when they join the game, But that doesn't account for all people because the people that ARE good as soon as they join, are good because they can Actually time their hits, and figure out hit distance when compared to the other 3y/os that play this game, who cant.
BUT.
It has also ENORMOUSLY widened the skill gap between the average player, and someone like me, who plays pvp consistently.
Before you get confused here is an analogy:
-
in 1.8 there where 3 classes: Poor, Middle, Rich. (in pvp)
and now with the 1.9 system, they closed the gap between the Poor and the middle class... But gave most of the ability's to the "Rich".
(Don't go screaming Economic shit at me, its just an analogy)
-
The average player who plays minecraft has not gotten used to or is not to attentive when it comes to timing their hits, making the average person practically equal in terms of combat. But when you factor in all the new game mech I have stated above:
"As the new mechanics require and provide a multitude of new options that were unavailable in the previous system such as: Dodging, Timed (not just yours but your also opponents) hits / blocks...And the wide variety of new strafing techniques to achieve victory, rather than going in for a combo or retreating out of one like it was in the old system.
Putting new plays on the table practically after every motion or decision you make in game, meaning you have a lot on your mind... I actually have to analyse my opponents as I fight them, rather than previously where I would just out strafe and out click them."
I believe that 1.9 does and even @tenebrous has stated, It requires more skill to actually win a fight.
If you don't get used to it, and play it like its 1.8 (which its not) you will indeed end up like the guy posting that on the minecraft forums.. Where you just equally trade off hits.. Because you and your opponent, are just as equally bad...
Pikachu Clicks19 hours ago
Anyone who says 1.9 takes more skill is only saying that, because they can't come to terms with the fact that becoming good at a game takes actual time and effort. They like being able to join a game and immediately be "good" comparatively to other players. All the 1.9 combat system did was reduce the skill-gap, and everyone knows that. Even Mojang knows that, and has publicly admitted to it. I emailed mojang about it within a few weeks of the update coming out, and support literally said "can you specifically describe what parts of the update you don't like, and why? Our development team has put in a lot of work to making sure the game is as fair as possible to all players of all skill levels." The entire goal was to make it easier for younger and newer players to do well. They didn't "add strategy" as some people are saying, all they did was take an enormous amount of skill out of the game so that 9 year olds can have a chance. In fact, I posted again tweeting at a Mojang staff member that the system is silly and why, and her response was "I agree!" The only people trying to argue that 1.9 takes more skill is just the absolute imbeciles that can't accept the fact that being bad at something exists. Actual PvPers know it takes no skill, and so does Mojang. This is the twitter conversation btw. https://twitter.com/Chupacaubrey/status/929781647397961728
~Me right now~
I Just read it:
"If you have better gear, you will win the fight every time, and otherwise, you'll lose every time. All that matters is being able to aim, which is extremely easy to do, so the skill-gap is pretty much gone."
That is just but one example from the text, he claims that 1.9 is NOT as skilled and is more actually a trade off for people who are bad at pvp.
But playing as one who has been pvping as well since 1.2 and still continues to play and has transferred to 1.9+, I can say that this is way far from the truth.
What I think is happening, is that people who play 1.8 don't even try. Don't even try to give the new combat system a chance to experience it.
Because I played so much pvp and factions practically since I joined minecraft, It took me some time to get used to and understand the new system... So I understand where he is coming from but I wholesomely believe he hasn't made much progress at all in even attempting to learn the new system.
In fact, I believe when taking his argument into account... its quite the opposite.
I believe 1.9 DID close the skill gap... (wait for it)
People that join can "Immediately be good" when they join the game, But that doesn't account for all people because the people that ARE good as soon as they join, are good because they can Actually time their hits, and figure out hit distance when compared to the other 3y/os that play this game, who cant.
BUT.
It has also ENORMOUSLY widened the skill gap between the average player, and someone like me, who plays pvp consistently.
Before you get confused here is an analogy:
-
in 1.8 there where 3 classes: Poor, Middle, Rich. (in pvp)
and now with the 1.9 system, they closed the gap between the Poor and the middle class... But gave most of the ability's to the "Rich".
(Don't go screaming Economic shit at me, its just an analogy)
-
The average player who plays minecraft has not gotten used to or is not to attentive when it comes to timing their hits, making the average person practically equal in terms of combat. But when you factor in all the new game mech I have stated above:
"As the new mechanics require and provide a multitude of new options that were unavailable in the previous system such as: Dodging, Timed (not just yours but your also opponents) hits / blocks...And the wide variety of new strafing techniques to achieve victory, rather than going in for a combo or retreating out of one like it was in the old system.
Putting new plays on the table practically after every motion or decision you make in game, meaning you have a lot on your mind... I actually have to analyse my opponents as I fight them, rather than previously where I would just out strafe and out click them."
I believe that 1.9 does and even @tenebrous has stated, It requires more skill to actually win a fight.
If you don't get used to it, and play it like its 1.8 (which its not) you will indeed end up like the guy posting that on the minecraft forums.. Where you just equally trade off hits.. Because you and your opponent, are just as equally bad...
2
I agree, you explained that very well.
1
I would agree with parts of this, I think most 1.8 players need to try 1.12 a bit more while actually keeping an open mind, but the difference between the average player, good players, and the best players is currently WAY smaller than 1.8. Part of this is simply top players haven't had as much time or other good players to get better as 1.8... But the actual difference between average vs. good is definitely more prominent in 1.8
1
Anyone reading this, start posting links to channels if you find any, that bring up good discussion about this topic, I wanna get in on it.
1
Still trying to obtain people willing yo defend 1.8 ;-;
There are a lot of people like this in YT comments tho, which is where im at rn lol
There are a lot of people like this in YT comments tho, which is where im at rn lol
3
Its a controversial topic :D
3
1.9+ is awesome in my opinion
1
Step forward if you defend 1.8
iv sent you the link and I know your reading this!
iv sent you the link and I know your reading this!
1
Do it. I sent you the link,
2
I mean, most of the information on 1.8 (and 1.9, to an extent) in this thread is plain wrong. Don't have time to 'defend 1.8' here right now, but can possibly tomorrow.
1
please do!
Im intrigued.
Im intrigued.
1
Also just saying, but you will find this to be a heavily biased platform for 1.9, just as me posting this on Badlion forums or Vanilla Legacy forums would be heavily biased to one side or another.
1
Seems so, But don't let it get you down... I'm interested in what you have to put on the table, im sure no one in this thread below even cares for it anymore \/
Opposition is what you are here for, personal bias can still be swayed as it is still opinion.
I'm eager to hear you :D
Opposition is what you are here for, personal bias can still be swayed as it is still opinion.
I'm eager to hear you :D
1
Yeah no, I've been in these kinds of debates countless times, doesn't really bother me at all anymore.
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I see a lot of people say 1.9 inherently requires more skill, and this simply isn't true. I won't go over every reason (or most, really) but I WILL cover ones mentioned here and possibly some other common misconceptions.
1. Timing Hits- This does not raise the skill gap. This is an artificial skill barrier (a 'requirement' to play competitively, but one that becomes such second nature it has no real effect on higher levels of play). People say 'oh 1.9 is better because you need to learn to time your hits, but that makes PvP harder'- No, it doesn't. When I picked up 1.9, within a minute I was able to consistently time my hits with a sword in practice, and within ~10-20 minutes I was doing so fairly consistently in actual gameplay while focusing on it. Within an hour it felt pretty natural. Timing hits is not difficult, and saying timing hits makes the game more skillful is like saying jitterclicking makes 1.8 take way more skill, except for the fact that jitterclicking is not required (whereas timing hits to some extent largely is).
2. 'Enhanced archery'- I really have no idea what to say to this, other than that this is completely wrong. Archery does not change between 1.8 and 1.9 other than that shields can block 100% of arrow damage, vs. sword blocking a portion of the arrow damage.
3. 'Manuever strafes'- Again, not much of a change. If anything, I would say strafing is not as essential in 1.9 than 1.8. In 1.8, how you strafe not only effects how you and your opponent aim at each other, but also how you deal knockback. Before landing a hit in 1.9, I hardly ever strafe, and most 'good' players generally don't either- You make small movements in an attempt to bait out an attack. In fighting games this is known as 'footsies', and while 1.9 players use this to a larger extent than 1.8 players, I would say when it is present in 1.8 (with block placement / rods in most hardcore-PvP gamemodes that have them) there are more variables and there is more mechanical execution and movement prediction involved. In 1.9, I'm going to stop near the edge of your attack range, and make small side strafes and backwards movements and see if you whiff an attack, then land an attack of my own. In 1.8, I'm going to do something similar, but instead of just movement there are rods involved, which I have to aim differently depending on the range, and requires more prediction to use effectively. There is also generally an increased threat of FnS / Lava buckets in 1.8 gamemodes with them, which requires significant mechanical skill to execute as well as the top players, and is generally not as prevalent in 1.9. Yes- Fns / lava buckets are still a thing, but switching items is punished by losing weapon damage charge, rods work differently (and generally you only need to hit A rod per neutral engage, vs. several in 1.8), and even if you do take a secondary like a rod, you are generally locked into that choice for a fight in 1.9. Also, with how 1.8 plays vs. how 1.9 plays, if I mess up neutral engage in 1.9, Im generally down a fully charged hit, maybe miss mine, and then take another half-charge swordhit- But then if I acknowledge I messed up, I can immediately get out. In 1.8, if I miss a key rod, I can take a full combo because of it. Even if I run, I will likely take more hits/damage for a single key mistake than in 1.9.
4. 'Dodging'- This is something I see 1.9 players bring up a lot, but at the end of the day its just a buzzword that doesn't really mean anything. Yeah, you make small movements to try and see if the other person whiffs an attack, but as mentioned above- That already exists in 1.8, but there is a lot more generally involved in it for 1.8 than 1.9. Most of the time people whiff hits, its because they are an idiot, went trigger happy, or assumed you would move forwards and whiffed. This can also be because of missing hits, but thats an entirely different topic, and I don't feel like getting into it right now.
1. Timing Hits- This does not raise the skill gap. This is an artificial skill barrier (a 'requirement' to play competitively, but one that becomes such second nature it has no real effect on higher levels of play). People say 'oh 1.9 is better because you need to learn to time your hits, but that makes PvP harder'- No, it doesn't. When I picked up 1.9, within a minute I was able to consistently time my hits with a sword in practice, and within ~10-20 minutes I was doing so fairly consistently in actual gameplay while focusing on it. Within an hour it felt pretty natural. Timing hits is not difficult, and saying timing hits makes the game more skillful is like saying jitterclicking makes 1.8 take way more skill, except for the fact that jitterclicking is not required (whereas timing hits to some extent largely is).
2. 'Enhanced archery'- I really have no idea what to say to this, other than that this is completely wrong. Archery does not change between 1.8 and 1.9 other than that shields can block 100% of arrow damage, vs. sword blocking a portion of the arrow damage.
3. 'Manuever strafes'- Again, not much of a change. If anything, I would say strafing is not as essential in 1.9 than 1.8. In 1.8, how you strafe not only effects how you and your opponent aim at each other, but also how you deal knockback. Before landing a hit in 1.9, I hardly ever strafe, and most 'good' players generally don't either- You make small movements in an attempt to bait out an attack. In fighting games this is known as 'footsies', and while 1.9 players use this to a larger extent than 1.8 players, I would say when it is present in 1.8 (with block placement / rods in most hardcore-PvP gamemodes that have them) there are more variables and there is more mechanical execution and movement prediction involved. In 1.9, I'm going to stop near the edge of your attack range, and make small side strafes and backwards movements and see if you whiff an attack, then land an attack of my own. In 1.8, I'm going to do something similar, but instead of just movement there are rods involved, which I have to aim differently depending on the range, and requires more prediction to use effectively. There is also generally an increased threat of FnS / Lava buckets in 1.8 gamemodes with them, which requires significant mechanical skill to execute as well as the top players, and is generally not as prevalent in 1.9. Yes- Fns / lava buckets are still a thing, but switching items is punished by losing weapon damage charge, rods work differently (and generally you only need to hit A rod per neutral engage, vs. several in 1.8), and even if you do take a secondary like a rod, you are generally locked into that choice for a fight in 1.9. Also, with how 1.8 plays vs. how 1.9 plays, if I mess up neutral engage in 1.9, Im generally down a fully charged hit, maybe miss mine, and then take another half-charge swordhit- But then if I acknowledge I messed up, I can immediately get out. In 1.8, if I miss a key rod, I can take a full combo because of it. Even if I run, I will likely take more hits/damage for a single key mistake than in 1.9.
4. 'Dodging'- This is something I see 1.9 players bring up a lot, but at the end of the day its just a buzzword that doesn't really mean anything. Yeah, you make small movements to try and see if the other person whiffs an attack, but as mentioned above- That already exists in 1.8, but there is a lot more generally involved in it for 1.8 than 1.9. Most of the time people whiff hits, its because they are an idiot, went trigger happy, or assumed you would move forwards and whiffed. This can also be because of missing hits, but thats an entirely different topic, and I don't feel like getting into it right now.
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1. "Timing Hits- This does not raise the skill gap". In most cases I would agree with you, it closes the skill gap to be more neutral towards newcomers, and people who don't pvp often... But with people like me who sometimes and have in the past pvped consistently, having proper and better timing than your opponent is a huge game changer and does need to be practiced. Sure it may come naturally if you are relatively good at timing things, but that doesn't indicate that there is no skill involved rather you just pre-acquired a good portion of it through past practices and experiences. Also jitter clicking in 1.8 does add another layer of skill to 1.8, as it is acquired not given... Just like you said 'not required'. While timing your hits or at least knowing what your doing when strike is 'required' if you are playing 1.9 competitively, and that on its own requires more thought - hence more skill - than the 1.8 playing field in, at least when it comes to just the factor of swinging your sword. 1.9 had new additions to this type of field where there are different times between Axes and swords, as well as modified critical's due to charged attacks (when your attack indicator is full) and also the addition of the new sword feature Sweeping Edge that can be viewed here: Sweep attack link. All these newer features are things to concern and deal with on the battle field which previously did not exist. Attack Cooldowns and Critical's can be found here (this is all not accounting for armor changes as well: armor)
2. ' 'Enhanced archery'- I really have no idea what to say to this' Truth been told... The archery system was changed drastically from versions 1.8 - 1.9 Other than just 'that shields can block 100% of arrow damage, vs. sword blocking a portion of the arrow damage.' The projectile paths of arrows were revamped and take into account a lot of your movement, Drastically changing projectile direction based on current motion during release. Example: Jumping up and releasing the arrow while falling will drastically make the arrow plummet. This mechanic I use a lot when hitting targets behind low cover dropping the arrow on-top of them (2-3 blocks tall). The arrows in 1.8 are more of a beam and don't take into account vertical player-movement. Arrows also got nerfed while in water (dropping drastically short in to a vertical plummet). Not to mention the 14+ new types of arrows they added into the game.
Read more here:Bow link
Here is a quick Pic at a general Addition summary between 1.8 and 1.9 (not full list ofc)
3. 'Maneuver strafes'- A drastic and game changing addition, Having the proper maneuver at the right time is even more essential than it is in 1.8. " In 1.8, how you strafe not only effects how you and your opponent aim at each other, but also how you deal knockback", and the same is only even more true for 1.9, keyword Knockback. 1.8 combat is almost completely based on knockback. To achieve a combo lock you must maneuver into an opponent whilst 'Locking' them in with your knockback... Rods and eggs are both just different methods to knockback the opponent just before they are within range so you can manipulate the situation when they are within range. " present in 1.8 (with block placement / rods in most hardcore-PvP gamemodes that have them)" You say this as if they are not present in 1.9 as well, These techniques / methods are still widely used and i have seen it... They did not disappear when the combat update was released. "but instead of just movement there are rods involved" Again also present in 1.9 and so are lava buckets.
"FnS / Lava buckets - generally not as prevalent in 1.9" I would disagree, this is based on the individual players combat preference and the materials they have at hand... but was never eliminated nor even changed when the combat update was released.
You bring up the point that if you use a rod in 1.9 you will have to sacrifice your cool down timer... In 1.9 you do have 2 hands and I don't really pvp with rods, so im pretty sure you can just like have a rod in your left hand, and a sword in your right. Also breaking a combo in 1.8 i'snt that hard, you could just turn directly opposite and run in that direction, in 1.9 failing to miss anything, a movement, a strike, a maneuver, will immediately open a window for the opponent to manipulate and take advantage. Ill get more into this in the 4th section but just to put it broadly right now: Every action is a new play (in 1.9).
4. "'Dodging'- This is something I see 1.9 players bring up a lot", And rightfully so. Dodging is not really a thing in 1.8, because click speed prevents it. its hard to Whiff a hit when you can diss out 15 of them in less than a second, and if you do thats on you usually not an outplaying maneuver by your opponent.
In 1.9 Dodging is a maneuver to get your opponent to whiff and restart their cooldown timer. You can evade a dodge if you want by clicking multiple times and giving them a bit a knockback.
Because fights are based on attack times and maneuvers everything you do counts, its not all based on knockback anymore, since there is a brief instance between every strike this allows time for both players to make and manipulate a new play, essentially changing up the fight after every Whiff, hit, critical, or even yess.. A combo.
you can still combo in 1.9, jitter clicking is still usful in small bursts especially to ruin opposing maneuvers.
2. ' 'Enhanced archery'- I really have no idea what to say to this' Truth been told... The archery system was changed drastically from versions 1.8 - 1.9 Other than just 'that shields can block 100% of arrow damage, vs. sword blocking a portion of the arrow damage.' The projectile paths of arrows were revamped and take into account a lot of your movement, Drastically changing projectile direction based on current motion during release. Example: Jumping up and releasing the arrow while falling will drastically make the arrow plummet. This mechanic I use a lot when hitting targets behind low cover dropping the arrow on-top of them (2-3 blocks tall). The arrows in 1.8 are more of a beam and don't take into account vertical player-movement. Arrows also got nerfed while in water (dropping drastically short in to a vertical plummet). Not to mention the 14+ new types of arrows they added into the game.
Read more here:Bow link
Here is a quick Pic at a general Addition summary between 1.8 and 1.9 (not full list ofc)
3. 'Maneuver strafes'- A drastic and game changing addition, Having the proper maneuver at the right time is even more essential than it is in 1.8. " In 1.8, how you strafe not only effects how you and your opponent aim at each other, but also how you deal knockback", and the same is only even more true for 1.9, keyword Knockback. 1.8 combat is almost completely based on knockback. To achieve a combo lock you must maneuver into an opponent whilst 'Locking' them in with your knockback... Rods and eggs are both just different methods to knockback the opponent just before they are within range so you can manipulate the situation when they are within range. " present in 1.8 (with block placement / rods in most hardcore-PvP gamemodes that have them)" You say this as if they are not present in 1.9 as well, These techniques / methods are still widely used and i have seen it... They did not disappear when the combat update was released. "but instead of just movement there are rods involved" Again also present in 1.9 and so are lava buckets.
"FnS / Lava buckets - generally not as prevalent in 1.9" I would disagree, this is based on the individual players combat preference and the materials they have at hand... but was never eliminated nor even changed when the combat update was released.
You bring up the point that if you use a rod in 1.9 you will have to sacrifice your cool down timer... In 1.9 you do have 2 hands and I don't really pvp with rods, so im pretty sure you can just like have a rod in your left hand, and a sword in your right. Also breaking a combo in 1.8 i'snt that hard, you could just turn directly opposite and run in that direction, in 1.9 failing to miss anything, a movement, a strike, a maneuver, will immediately open a window for the opponent to manipulate and take advantage. Ill get more into this in the 4th section but just to put it broadly right now: Every action is a new play (in 1.9).
4. "'Dodging'- This is something I see 1.9 players bring up a lot", And rightfully so. Dodging is not really a thing in 1.8, because click speed prevents it. its hard to Whiff a hit when you can diss out 15 of them in less than a second, and if you do thats on you usually not an outplaying maneuver by your opponent.
In 1.9 Dodging is a maneuver to get your opponent to whiff and restart their cooldown timer. You can evade a dodge if you want by clicking multiple times and giving them a bit a knockback.
Because fights are based on attack times and maneuvers everything you do counts, its not all based on knockback anymore, since there is a brief instance between every strike this allows time for both players to make and manipulate a new play, essentially changing up the fight after every Whiff, hit, critical, or even yess.. A combo.
you can still combo in 1.9, jitter clicking is still usful in small bursts especially to ruin opposing maneuvers.
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Going to come back to timed hits in a bit
Archery still has very similar mechanics compared to previously- Movement already DID have input on arrow trajectory, it was just increased a bit. While longer-range bowshots do change with this, the basics of the system are so similar that you can easily switch between 1.8 and 1.9 and not have any difficulties adjusting. There aren't many points in time where you will be firing arrows in water.Even though there were 14 different arrow types, they basically break down to 3 categories:
1. Damage (used exactly the same as in prior versions, just apply poison or extra damage)
2. Healing / self buffs (low-charge shots to hit self for buffs)
3. Generally useless / other (arrows that realistically aren't going to have an impact, or that don't fit into the other catergories. Generally not used at all, or do not change playstyle at all).
Only 1 catergory (buffs) truly uses a bow/arrow in a different way. Even then, its very simple- you just aim up and fire weak arrows to self-buff.
Rods do not function the same in 1.8 vs. 1.8- They are not tools for the neutral that deal knockback, and is generally a lot less threatening IMO (although it can be EXTREMELY scary in an axe vs. sword matchup), other than that- With how offhand works, players are generally 'locked into' an option, and their secondaries are a lot more broadcasted (since you can see they intend to use it if it is in their offhand), and using multiple secondaries is much more limited (because again, you lose sword charge if you switch to another item).
Dodging isnt really a thing in either- Again, you aren't 'dodging', you dont see somebody swing a sword and then make a move to evade it, you are just making small movements to try and get people to whiff so they have no sword charge. Thats not a dodge though, its a dodge if its on reaction- Moving to try and get somebody to whiff isnt that. You can physically 'dodge' a rod in 1.8, but its pretty limited and most of the time you are just looking for the other person to miss a rod so you can punish.
Combos are.... very limited by comparison in 1.9. Not saying they dont happen, but in a lot of cases where they happen, they are a bit more avoidable than in 1.8. Jitterclicking also is NOT a thing in 1.9, because you waste all of your sword charge, but don't hit them (because of the hit delay), you just wait less and throw out like a half-charge sword hit, and see if people just keep running into it over and over thinking they can hit you when they can't.
Archery still has very similar mechanics compared to previously- Movement already DID have input on arrow trajectory, it was just increased a bit. While longer-range bowshots do change with this, the basics of the system are so similar that you can easily switch between 1.8 and 1.9 and not have any difficulties adjusting. There aren't many points in time where you will be firing arrows in water.Even though there were 14 different arrow types, they basically break down to 3 categories:
1. Damage (used exactly the same as in prior versions, just apply poison or extra damage)
2. Healing / self buffs (low-charge shots to hit self for buffs)
3. Generally useless / other (arrows that realistically aren't going to have an impact, or that don't fit into the other catergories. Generally not used at all, or do not change playstyle at all).
Only 1 catergory (buffs) truly uses a bow/arrow in a different way. Even then, its very simple- you just aim up and fire weak arrows to self-buff.
Rods do not function the same in 1.8 vs. 1.8- They are not tools for the neutral that deal knockback, and is generally a lot less threatening IMO (although it can be EXTREMELY scary in an axe vs. sword matchup), other than that- With how offhand works, players are generally 'locked into' an option, and their secondaries are a lot more broadcasted (since you can see they intend to use it if it is in their offhand), and using multiple secondaries is much more limited (because again, you lose sword charge if you switch to another item).
Dodging isnt really a thing in either- Again, you aren't 'dodging', you dont see somebody swing a sword and then make a move to evade it, you are just making small movements to try and get people to whiff so they have no sword charge. Thats not a dodge though, its a dodge if its on reaction- Moving to try and get somebody to whiff isnt that. You can physically 'dodge' a rod in 1.8, but its pretty limited and most of the time you are just looking for the other person to miss a rod so you can punish.
Combos are.... very limited by comparison in 1.9. Not saying they dont happen, but in a lot of cases where they happen, they are a bit more avoidable than in 1.8. Jitterclicking also is NOT a thing in 1.9, because you waste all of your sword charge, but don't hit them (because of the hit delay), you just wait less and throw out like a half-charge sword hit, and see if people just keep running into it over and over thinking they can hit you when they can't.
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Got back from doing something as well...
I certainly have a few difficulty's adjusting to 1.8 archery that may be on my part but, its not too difficult and you are right they are similar but I do still conciser it Enhanced because it has more features and I like the adjusted bow mechanics.
I agree with you are the use of the word dodging... Its more of like, a preemptive dodge.. if that is even a thing. Like predict they are going strike and move in order for them to Whiff their strike.
"Jitterclicking also is NOT a thing in 1.9, because you waste all of your sword charge, but don't hit them (because of the hit delay)" False. I jitterclick all the time in 1.9 still.
Clicking fast will immediately restart your attack timer making you do close to no damage at all, but the player damage mechanics are still the same as they were when they existed in 1.8 (besides armor and shields) so the best way to explain how you can still use it is to tell how exactly I use it;
Imagine im fighting someone in 1.9 who is around the same skill level. Like stated above there are new types of strafes more or less designed / used to provoke a whiff /\. So imagine I do whiff? At this movement, I have already made a heavy mistake they could cost me possibly even the match... especially since my opponent is of the same skill level, they will take advantage of my mistake and manipulate the situation.
How can I avoid this besides just not whiffing? and the answer is Jitterclicking.
If I keep my attack bar at full when engaging. and when im ready to strike rather than tap just once to hit, instead I would do like a small (what I like to call) jitter burst. Its jitterclicking, but I only let out 3-5 hits (or less) in way under a second. Yes everything that hits after the first strike does little to no damage, but keeping a controlled burst wont effect your cooldown too much (maybe .2 seconds) and will stall the opponent from maneuvering if you do whiff that first hit, because you get that bit of knockback and maybe take an 1/2 heart. Even if you dont whiff, hitting them with a small jitterburst can also give you an edge, because you land your first hit (dealing full damage) and possible +1 small strike giving them an extra bit of knockback and possibly diminishing a bit of their health (at the cost of a few milliseconds). Milliseconds are crucial but if done correctly jitterbursting is a technique that works, and I definitely can vouch for it, giving me the edge in plenty of situations. Denying "dodges" and giving an extra push to which is most usually unexpected and to my own leisure.
Not sure what to use instead of the word dodge just yet (hlp)...
I certainly have a few difficulty's adjusting to 1.8 archery that may be on my part but, its not too difficult and you are right they are similar but I do still conciser it Enhanced because it has more features and I like the adjusted bow mechanics.
I agree with you are the use of the word dodging... Its more of like, a preemptive dodge.. if that is even a thing. Like predict they are going strike and move in order for them to Whiff their strike.
"Jitterclicking also is NOT a thing in 1.9, because you waste all of your sword charge, but don't hit them (because of the hit delay)" False. I jitterclick all the time in 1.9 still.
Clicking fast will immediately restart your attack timer making you do close to no damage at all, but the player damage mechanics are still the same as they were when they existed in 1.8 (besides armor and shields) so the best way to explain how you can still use it is to tell how exactly I use it;
Imagine im fighting someone in 1.9 who is around the same skill level. Like stated above there are new types of strafes more or less designed / used to provoke a whiff /\. So imagine I do whiff? At this movement, I have already made a heavy mistake they could cost me possibly even the match... especially since my opponent is of the same skill level, they will take advantage of my mistake and manipulate the situation.
How can I avoid this besides just not whiffing? and the answer is Jitterclicking.
If I keep my attack bar at full when engaging. and when im ready to strike rather than tap just once to hit, instead I would do like a small (what I like to call) jitter burst. Its jitterclicking, but I only let out 3-5 hits (or less) in way under a second. Yes everything that hits after the first strike does little to no damage, but keeping a controlled burst wont effect your cooldown too much (maybe .2 seconds) and will stall the opponent from maneuvering if you do whiff that first hit, because you get that bit of knockback and maybe take an 1/2 heart. Even if you dont whiff, hitting them with a small jitterburst can also give you an edge, because you land your first hit (dealing full damage) and possible +1 small strike giving them an extra bit of knockback and possibly diminishing a bit of their health (at the cost of a few milliseconds). Milliseconds are crucial but if done correctly jitterbursting is a technique that works, and I definitely can vouch for it, giving me the edge in plenty of situations. Denying "dodges" and giving an extra push to which is most usually unexpected and to my own leisure.
Not sure what to use instead of the word dodge just yet (hlp)...
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