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҉ ΨΨ~Debate Pvp / 1.9 Vs 1.8~ΨΨ ҉
Nightshade73---------------------------------------------------
I declare a debate, 1.9+ combat Vs 1.8-
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I shall start off this debate by laying down the following... I advocate for 1.9+ combat, as I believe it require's more skills and combat awareness, and provides the shield to further add complexity to that of war.
Why does it require more skill?
It does so, because in 1.8- combat is restrained to 3 major things.. Jitterclick, Strafe, and combos.
While 1.9 focuses more on, Hit timing, Dodging, block timing, maneuver strafes, and enhanced archery.
I declare a debate, 1.9+ combat Vs 1.8-
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I shall start off this debate by laying down the following... I advocate for 1.9+ combat, as I believe it require's more skills and combat awareness, and provides the shield to further add complexity to that of war.
Why does it require more skill?
It does so, because in 1.8- combat is restrained to 3 major things.. Jitterclick, Strafe, and combos.
While 1.9 focuses more on, Hit timing, Dodging, block timing, maneuver strafes, and enhanced archery.
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1.9+ is much better as it takes timing and skill meanwhile in 1.8 all you do is click m1 as fast as you can while running in circles around your opponent and eventually somebody gets a lag spike or someone joins in and one person dies. it is 100% a game of chance unless somebody is so new to minecraft they don't know how to hit.
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I agree with you that 1.8 is extremely reliant on Jitterclicking and circle strafes, but there is still skill involved and I don't believe that can be argued.
1.9 is still better
invite some people to the discussion, I'm really curious as to what some people will come up with to defend it, and I want to debate.
1.9 is still better
invite some people to the discussion, I'm really curious as to what some people will come up with to defend it, and I want to debate.
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Ya pretty clearly disproved your own logic here lol.
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Assuming it is a game of chance, then how is it possible for one person to be bad and another to be good?
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1.9+ is awesome in my opinion
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Its a controversial topic :D
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Here's another post saying 1.9+ requires more grey matter to use and that skill can be better applied to 1.9+ combat as compared to 1.8.
My theory is that 1.9+ combat makes people think and invalidates the clickclickclickclick philosophy that minecraft players have had with PVP for years. The change forces them to PVP differently, and they don't feel like adapting.
Besides simply being too lazy/disinterested in learning the new system, I haven't heard of a viable 1.8 and before defense in regards to skill.
Perhaps servers retain 1.8 PVP for this exact reason - it doesn't take as much skill, and is thus more approachable to PVPers and gets people into the action quicker. Less thought, more clicking. Sounds suitable given the community trends.
My theory is that 1.9+ combat makes people think and invalidates the clickclickclickclick philosophy that minecraft players have had with PVP for years. The change forces them to PVP differently, and they don't feel like adapting.
Besides simply being too lazy/disinterested in learning the new system, I haven't heard of a viable 1.8 and before defense in regards to skill.
Perhaps servers retain 1.8 PVP for this exact reason - it doesn't take as much skill, and is thus more approachable to PVPers and gets people into the action quicker. Less thought, more clicking. Sounds suitable given the community trends.
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As a small side defense to 1.8, because I used to play it all the time... It does require practice / experience to be actually good at it. A lot of people play 1.8 (still) where they just walk at you and maybe do some left to right strafing while clicking as fast as they can... The skill sense to 1.8 really out of my own experience resides in being able to land combos and keep up the strafe.
Combos are hard to explain if you don't already know what they are, but its practically part of the old game mechanic where you would "Lock" someone from hitting you at a certain distance because your hits register first, due to completing a certain type of strafe and landing a hit around the same time.
To my extent of pvping this way for years, that is typically the only Skill involved except learning to click faster...
When I switched to 1.9 however, and it took me about 2 weeks to get used to...
It requires a lot more game sense as you actually have to think about you and your enemy's move in a short amount of time, while list timing you and your opponents strikes / crits (at base gameplay swords only). And that's only the real basics of fighting in 1.9, you can take into account the high multitude of different strafes and techniques you can use to unlock advantage over your opponent.
Combos are hard to explain if you don't already know what they are, but its practically part of the old game mechanic where you would "Lock" someone from hitting you at a certain distance because your hits register first, due to completing a certain type of strafe and landing a hit around the same time.
To my extent of pvping this way for years, that is typically the only Skill involved except learning to click faster...
When I switched to 1.9 however, and it took me about 2 weeks to get used to...
It requires a lot more game sense as you actually have to think about you and your enemy's move in a short amount of time, while list timing you and your opponents strikes / crits (at base gameplay swords only). And that's only the real basics of fighting in 1.9, you can take into account the high multitude of different strafes and techniques you can use to unlock advantage over your opponent.
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I would not argue 1.8 and prior is no skill at all; but I would say there's more one must keep in mind to 1.9+ era. And yes, I was aware of those tactics, during the time I did get vested in PVP (not very long, it bored me quickly compared to games with far superior PVP mechanics for my tastes).
Another angle, which I haven't even touched into yet, is that pvp hacks could sometimes be difficult to notice (at the very least, they weren't uncommon in open servers). In 1.9+, I've found them to be less of an issue. Perhaps it's just because most of the people who were inclined to cheat on prior versions don't bother with 1.9+, but either way, it's a far less open issue than when I was more actively working with servers and in a position to actually monitor people for illegitimate pvp. Killaura and things making the mouse snap towards a player are fairly simple to detect; clickspam bots, not quite as much, and even some of the smarter aimbots.
People just haven't 'broken' 1.9+ pvp as much. Yet is probably the best word :p
Another angle, which I haven't even touched into yet, is that pvp hacks could sometimes be difficult to notice (at the very least, they weren't uncommon in open servers). In 1.9+, I've found them to be less of an issue. Perhaps it's just because most of the people who were inclined to cheat on prior versions don't bother with 1.9+, but either way, it's a far less open issue than when I was more actively working with servers and in a position to actually monitor people for illegitimate pvp. Killaura and things making the mouse snap towards a player are fairly simple to detect; clickspam bots, not quite as much, and even some of the smarter aimbots.
People just haven't 'broken' 1.9+ pvp as much. Yet is probably the best word :p
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1 word: Regen. There's also plenty of other hacks that still work in 1.9, but yeah- Hacking just isnt as prevalent to some degree.
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Thats probably due to better anti-cheat development aswell.
I use spartan on my server and it recently got Machine-learning (petty AI (still AI)).
I use spartan on my server and it recently got Machine-learning (petty AI (still AI)).
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Movement is a relevant skill, for pot / other gamemodes of PvP with secondaries thats a skill, aim is a lot more necessary in 1.8, etc.
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i like 1.9 because it means i don't die as much XD
in 1.8 it's all about who can click the fastest and who has the better gear, whereas in 1.9, it takes more skill
#1.9FTW
in 1.8 it's all about who can click the fastest and who has the better gear, whereas in 1.9, it takes more skill
#1.9FTW
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Before someone argues
"How do you die less in somthing that requires more skill?"
I shall unleash my premptive COUNTER ARGUMENT!! (against myself)
Is that since 1.9 holds more factors to take into account when in combat, and it most certainly in my opinion takes more skill, their are less people that match up to this skill allowing you to get more hits, making it seemingly easier for people who can actually time their hits to get kills against those who do not.
"How do you die less in somthing that requires more skill?"
I shall unleash my premptive COUNTER ARGUMENT!! (against myself)
Is that since 1.9 holds more factors to take into account when in combat, and it most certainly in my opinion takes more skill, their are less people that match up to this skill allowing you to get more hits, making it seemingly easier for people who can actually time their hits to get kills against those who do not.
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I die less because i'm actually good at it XD
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tbh i prefer 1.9 as it makes combat overall challenging you have to think about when you should attack how you should run in and what to do not to mention all the new arrows this probably made a lot of cheaters freak out as well lol bottom-line 1.9 its not just click to win anymore
lol and i was just about to make a similar tread
lol and i was just about to make a similar tread
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Maaaan, so many people in my dms and on the thread telling me 1.9 is better...
But Every time I join a pvp server or faction server with 1.8 still installed they tell me im nieve and live under a rock for thinking 1.9 is better and that people actually play it..
Usualy I win with debate (if they let me actually speak to them) but... FR im thinking now I should just make a poll with 1.9 vs 1.8 combat so I can just send that to them every time its brought up..
But Every time I join a pvp server or faction server with 1.8 still installed they tell me im nieve and live under a rock for thinking 1.9 is better and that people actually play it..
Usualy I win with debate (if they let me actually speak to them) but... FR im thinking now I should just make a poll with 1.9 vs 1.8 combat so I can just send that to them every time its brought up..
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lol that would be a cool idea pvp servers HATE 1.9 pvp they are also the same people who dont like minercraft updates saying its making the game bad recently i had a debate with someone that said terracotta blocks have ruined minercaft i guess people just dont like change but idk when they will start to implement it the combat update to pvp servers
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'You have to think about how you attack'- Not really, only requirement is 'can I hit this person when I click'? If yes, move forward and click. If no, don't click. If you bring it down to the basics, its still the exact same logic- Just 'clickspam' is gone.
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Tbh this thread is dead Rip in spaghetti never forgetti
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Yeh.
ill just let it die now..
bbyebyebyebyebyeybbyeybebyey
ill just let it die now..
bbyebyebyebyebyeybbyeybebyey
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1.9 is so much better. 1.8 just looks silly with everyone running around spamming their sword swings. Not to mention 1.9 caters more to realism because it isn't physically possible to swing a sword effectively every .2 seconds. 1.9 definitely takes more skill with all the different cooldowns it has, its plainly obvious that its harder to meet the cooldown right on mark to get the maximum amount of damage per second as possible, rather than just click like a maniac and hope to hit faster than the other person. Shields are awesome too, a much more balanced approach as opposed to the sword-blocking in 1.8.
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Hit limit in 1.8 is well above .2, and it would be reasonable to swing a sword quickly, with power behind it. That's like saying you cant punch quickly AND punch hard.
The argument of realism is not only incorrect, it also makes 0 sense- Even if you are 'swinging wildly', you are swinging a pixelated sword at a block person before you then go and down a steak in 3 bites so you regenerate bodily limbs faster. The same update that made PvP 'more realistic' added WINGS and a plant that teleports you when you eat it. Yes, realism is definitely relevant here.
As mentioned earlier- timing hits truly is not that hard, and if you struggle with it, its either from discipline, or you would struggle in either 1.8 or 1.9.
Damage per second doesnt change with click speed beyond a certain, pretty low point- The hit limit is normally a little under 3 hits per second... so if you can click 4 times a second (most people would have trouble clicking this slow, even casually) you can PvP.
The argument of realism is not only incorrect, it also makes 0 sense- Even if you are 'swinging wildly', you are swinging a pixelated sword at a block person before you then go and down a steak in 3 bites so you regenerate bodily limbs faster. The same update that made PvP 'more realistic' added WINGS and a plant that teleports you when you eat it. Yes, realism is definitely relevant here.
As mentioned earlier- timing hits truly is not that hard, and if you struggle with it, its either from discipline, or you would struggle in either 1.8 or 1.9.
Damage per second doesnt change with click speed beyond a certain, pretty low point- The hit limit is normally a little under 3 hits per second... so if you can click 4 times a second (most people would have trouble clicking this slow, even casually) you can PvP.
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idk the exact mechanics of 1.8, never researched it deeply because it was so simple, all know is that it was spazzy and weird. Also your comparison doesn't relate to punching, because a bare fist has no weight to it, while a hefty long sword does. You wouldn't be able to make a full swing, recoil, and raise it back up to the position where it started in one second with enough power to hurt someone. What i was trying to convey with timing is that timing hits in 1.8 isn't hard at all, while in 1.9 it takes more patience to land successive hits with the smallest amount of buffer time in between, which is more challenging and therefor much more fun. Because of this, 1.8 is less complex and requires less skill than 1.9.
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Even with a sword, swinging twice a second is perfectly reasonable.
If you don't know much about 1.8, then how exactly... can you say that 1.9 takes more skill my dude?
What i was trying to convey with timing is that timing hits in 1.8 isn't hard at all, because you don't, 1.8 plays completely differently from 1.9- 1.8 not having 'hit timing' doesnt inherently make it less skillful, because it doesn't revolve around that. while in 1.9 it takes more patience to land successive hits with the smallest amount of buffer time this statement was literally word salad, if you could explain- that'd be great. in between, which is more challenging Lets see you throw rods perfectly then, eh? Lets see you keep your crosshair right on another player in Pot / Gapple PvP then, oh wait... you don't play 1.8 and therefor much more fun. This is entirely subjective to what a player finds fun Because of this, 1.8 is less complex 5 seconds ago you were talking about how you dont know much about 1.8, yet now you can say with 100% certainty its more complex? Bro... and requires less skill than 1.9. You have yet to give a reason outside of 'timed hits' as to why 1.9 is 'more skillful'.
If you don't know much about 1.8, then how exactly... can you say that 1.9 takes more skill my dude?
What i was trying to convey with timing is that timing hits in 1.8 isn't hard at all, because you don't, 1.8 plays completely differently from 1.9- 1.8 not having 'hit timing' doesnt inherently make it less skillful, because it doesn't revolve around that. while in 1.9 it takes more patience to land successive hits with the smallest amount of buffer time this statement was literally word salad, if you could explain- that'd be great. in between, which is more challenging Lets see you throw rods perfectly then, eh? Lets see you keep your crosshair right on another player in Pot / Gapple PvP then, oh wait... you don't play 1.8 and therefor much more fun. This is entirely subjective to what a player finds fun Because of this, 1.8 is less complex 5 seconds ago you were talking about how you dont know much about 1.8, yet now you can say with 100% certainty its more complex? Bro... and requires less skill than 1.9. You have yet to give a reason outside of 'timed hits' as to why 1.9 is 'more skillful'.
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hmmm yes i will admit i don't provide specific points haha. But i will say that i have been playing since 1.7.2 beta and had my fair share of 1.8 pvp (not on OP pvp servers,but on survival and non-op factions servers.) What i meant by mechanics is the exact time between hits. word salad is all i seem to be able to talk in, so i will re explain that part again. Since the cooldown is longer in 1.9 you have to wait longer (patience) before you can make an effective hit AND learn how to repeat that new amount of time to be able to lower your opponents health quicker, and win. I don't know much at all about pot and gapple pvp, but i have seen it on YT. That seems like it goes on unnecessarily long. This is why i don't like it and think its really silly, everyone runs away and heals every time they near death. 1.9 is indeed more skillful because of the longer cooldowns. Yup, thats my main reason.
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Ive also already stated as to why timing hits reaaally doesnt increase the skill gap or make it more difficult. Thats like me saying clicking fast is hard, so 1.8 is 'more skillful' because you HAVE to click fast! (first of which is subjective, and second of which isn't true).
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There is a difference between seeing somebody, and actually understanding what is going on. If you don't know what you are even looking at, its a bit unfair to make judgements.
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Very mumble jumble going on here but.. I agree with both of you in some aspects or another.
and there is nothing here we just got to getting discussing in the reply below becides:
"Pot / Gapple PvP then, oh wait... you don't play 1.8"
my quote->"was never eliminated nor even changed when the combat update was released." Except that Gapples where actually changed.. but gapples in pvp are 100% still relevant in 1.9+
and there is nothing here we just got to getting discussing in the reply below becides:
"Pot / Gapple PvP then, oh wait... you don't play 1.8"
my quote->"was never eliminated nor even changed when the combat update was released." Except that Gapples where actually changed.. but gapples in pvp are 100% still relevant in 1.9+
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Thank you for restoring my hope in the 1.7 - 1.8 PvP community
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I see a lot of people say 1.9 inherently requires more skill, and this simply isn't true. I won't go over every reason (or most, really) but I WILL cover ones mentioned here and possibly some other common misconceptions.
1. Timing Hits- This does not raise the skill gap. This is an artificial skill barrier (a 'requirement' to play competitively, but one that becomes such second nature it has no real effect on higher levels of play). People say 'oh 1.9 is better because you need to learn to time your hits, but that makes PvP harder'- No, it doesn't. When I picked up 1.9, within a minute I was able to consistently time my hits with a sword in practice, and within ~10-20 minutes I was doing so fairly consistently in actual gameplay while focusing on it. Within an hour it felt pretty natural. Timing hits is not difficult, and saying timing hits makes the game more skillful is like saying jitterclicking makes 1.8 take way more skill, except for the fact that jitterclicking is not required (whereas timing hits to some extent largely is).
2. 'Enhanced archery'- I really have no idea what to say to this, other than that this is completely wrong. Archery does not change between 1.8 and 1.9 other than that shields can block 100% of arrow damage, vs. sword blocking a portion of the arrow damage.
3. 'Manuever strafes'- Again, not much of a change. If anything, I would say strafing is not as essential in 1.9 than 1.8. In 1.8, how you strafe not only effects how you and your opponent aim at each other, but also how you deal knockback. Before landing a hit in 1.9, I hardly ever strafe, and most 'good' players generally don't either- You make small movements in an attempt to bait out an attack. In fighting games this is known as 'footsies', and while 1.9 players use this to a larger extent than 1.8 players, I would say when it is present in 1.8 (with block placement / rods in most hardcore-PvP gamemodes that have them) there are more variables and there is more mechanical execution and movement prediction involved. In 1.9, I'm going to stop near the edge of your attack range, and make small side strafes and backwards movements and see if you whiff an attack, then land an attack of my own. In 1.8, I'm going to do something similar, but instead of just movement there are rods involved, which I have to aim differently depending on the range, and requires more prediction to use effectively. There is also generally an increased threat of FnS / Lava buckets in 1.8 gamemodes with them, which requires significant mechanical skill to execute as well as the top players, and is generally not as prevalent in 1.9. Yes- Fns / lava buckets are still a thing, but switching items is punished by losing weapon damage charge, rods work differently (and generally you only need to hit A rod per neutral engage, vs. several in 1.8), and even if you do take a secondary like a rod, you are generally locked into that choice for a fight in 1.9. Also, with how 1.8 plays vs. how 1.9 plays, if I mess up neutral engage in 1.9, Im generally down a fully charged hit, maybe miss mine, and then take another half-charge swordhit- But then if I acknowledge I messed up, I can immediately get out. In 1.8, if I miss a key rod, I can take a full combo because of it. Even if I run, I will likely take more hits/damage for a single key mistake than in 1.9.
4. 'Dodging'- This is something I see 1.9 players bring up a lot, but at the end of the day its just a buzzword that doesn't really mean anything. Yeah, you make small movements to try and see if the other person whiffs an attack, but as mentioned above- That already exists in 1.8, but there is a lot more generally involved in it for 1.8 than 1.9. Most of the time people whiff hits, its because they are an idiot, went trigger happy, or assumed you would move forwards and whiffed. This can also be because of missing hits, but thats an entirely different topic, and I don't feel like getting into it right now.
1. Timing Hits- This does not raise the skill gap. This is an artificial skill barrier (a 'requirement' to play competitively, but one that becomes such second nature it has no real effect on higher levels of play). People say 'oh 1.9 is better because you need to learn to time your hits, but that makes PvP harder'- No, it doesn't. When I picked up 1.9, within a minute I was able to consistently time my hits with a sword in practice, and within ~10-20 minutes I was doing so fairly consistently in actual gameplay while focusing on it. Within an hour it felt pretty natural. Timing hits is not difficult, and saying timing hits makes the game more skillful is like saying jitterclicking makes 1.8 take way more skill, except for the fact that jitterclicking is not required (whereas timing hits to some extent largely is).
2. 'Enhanced archery'- I really have no idea what to say to this, other than that this is completely wrong. Archery does not change between 1.8 and 1.9 other than that shields can block 100% of arrow damage, vs. sword blocking a portion of the arrow damage.
3. 'Manuever strafes'- Again, not much of a change. If anything, I would say strafing is not as essential in 1.9 than 1.8. In 1.8, how you strafe not only effects how you and your opponent aim at each other, but also how you deal knockback. Before landing a hit in 1.9, I hardly ever strafe, and most 'good' players generally don't either- You make small movements in an attempt to bait out an attack. In fighting games this is known as 'footsies', and while 1.9 players use this to a larger extent than 1.8 players, I would say when it is present in 1.8 (with block placement / rods in most hardcore-PvP gamemodes that have them) there are more variables and there is more mechanical execution and movement prediction involved. In 1.9, I'm going to stop near the edge of your attack range, and make small side strafes and backwards movements and see if you whiff an attack, then land an attack of my own. In 1.8, I'm going to do something similar, but instead of just movement there are rods involved, which I have to aim differently depending on the range, and requires more prediction to use effectively. There is also generally an increased threat of FnS / Lava buckets in 1.8 gamemodes with them, which requires significant mechanical skill to execute as well as the top players, and is generally not as prevalent in 1.9. Yes- Fns / lava buckets are still a thing, but switching items is punished by losing weapon damage charge, rods work differently (and generally you only need to hit A rod per neutral engage, vs. several in 1.8), and even if you do take a secondary like a rod, you are generally locked into that choice for a fight in 1.9. Also, with how 1.8 plays vs. how 1.9 plays, if I mess up neutral engage in 1.9, Im generally down a fully charged hit, maybe miss mine, and then take another half-charge swordhit- But then if I acknowledge I messed up, I can immediately get out. In 1.8, if I miss a key rod, I can take a full combo because of it. Even if I run, I will likely take more hits/damage for a single key mistake than in 1.9.
4. 'Dodging'- This is something I see 1.9 players bring up a lot, but at the end of the day its just a buzzword that doesn't really mean anything. Yeah, you make small movements to try and see if the other person whiffs an attack, but as mentioned above- That already exists in 1.8, but there is a lot more generally involved in it for 1.8 than 1.9. Most of the time people whiff hits, its because they are an idiot, went trigger happy, or assumed you would move forwards and whiffed. This can also be because of missing hits, but thats an entirely different topic, and I don't feel like getting into it right now.
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1. "Timing Hits- This does not raise the skill gap". In most cases I would agree with you, it closes the skill gap to be more neutral towards newcomers, and people who don't pvp often... But with people like me who sometimes and have in the past pvped consistently, having proper and better timing than your opponent is a huge game changer and does need to be practiced. Sure it may come naturally if you are relatively good at timing things, but that doesn't indicate that there is no skill involved rather you just pre-acquired a good portion of it through past practices and experiences. Also jitter clicking in 1.8 does add another layer of skill to 1.8, as it is acquired not given... Just like you said 'not required'. While timing your hits or at least knowing what your doing when strike is 'required' if you are playing 1.9 competitively, and that on its own requires more thought - hence more skill - than the 1.8 playing field in, at least when it comes to just the factor of swinging your sword. 1.9 had new additions to this type of field where there are different times between Axes and swords, as well as modified critical's due to charged attacks (when your attack indicator is full) and also the addition of the new sword feature Sweeping Edge that can be viewed here: Sweep attack link. All these newer features are things to concern and deal with on the battle field which previously did not exist. Attack Cooldowns and Critical's can be found here (this is all not accounting for armor changes as well: armor)
2. ' 'Enhanced archery'- I really have no idea what to say to this' Truth been told... The archery system was changed drastically from versions 1.8 - 1.9 Other than just 'that shields can block 100% of arrow damage, vs. sword blocking a portion of the arrow damage.' The projectile paths of arrows were revamped and take into account a lot of your movement, Drastically changing projectile direction based on current motion during release. Example: Jumping up and releasing the arrow while falling will drastically make the arrow plummet. This mechanic I use a lot when hitting targets behind low cover dropping the arrow on-top of them (2-3 blocks tall). The arrows in 1.8 are more of a beam and don't take into account vertical player-movement. Arrows also got nerfed while in water (dropping drastically short in to a vertical plummet). Not to mention the 14+ new types of arrows they added into the game.
Read more here:Bow link
Here is a quick Pic at a general Addition summary between 1.8 and 1.9 (not full list ofc)
3. 'Maneuver strafes'- A drastic and game changing addition, Having the proper maneuver at the right time is even more essential than it is in 1.8. " In 1.8, how you strafe not only effects how you and your opponent aim at each other, but also how you deal knockback", and the same is only even more true for 1.9, keyword Knockback. 1.8 combat is almost completely based on knockback. To achieve a combo lock you must maneuver into an opponent whilst 'Locking' them in with your knockback... Rods and eggs are both just different methods to knockback the opponent just before they are within range so you can manipulate the situation when they are within range. " present in 1.8 (with block placement / rods in most hardcore-PvP gamemodes that have them)" You say this as if they are not present in 1.9 as well, These techniques / methods are still widely used and i have seen it... They did not disappear when the combat update was released. "but instead of just movement there are rods involved" Again also present in 1.9 and so are lava buckets.
"FnS / Lava buckets - generally not as prevalent in 1.9" I would disagree, this is based on the individual players combat preference and the materials they have at hand... but was never eliminated nor even changed when the combat update was released.
You bring up the point that if you use a rod in 1.9 you will have to sacrifice your cool down timer... In 1.9 you do have 2 hands and I don't really pvp with rods, so im pretty sure you can just like have a rod in your left hand, and a sword in your right. Also breaking a combo in 1.8 i'snt that hard, you could just turn directly opposite and run in that direction, in 1.9 failing to miss anything, a movement, a strike, a maneuver, will immediately open a window for the opponent to manipulate and take advantage. Ill get more into this in the 4th section but just to put it broadly right now: Every action is a new play (in 1.9).
4. "'Dodging'- This is something I see 1.9 players bring up a lot", And rightfully so. Dodging is not really a thing in 1.8, because click speed prevents it. its hard to Whiff a hit when you can diss out 15 of them in less than a second, and if you do thats on you usually not an outplaying maneuver by your opponent.
In 1.9 Dodging is a maneuver to get your opponent to whiff and restart their cooldown timer. You can evade a dodge if you want by clicking multiple times and giving them a bit a knockback.
Because fights are based on attack times and maneuvers everything you do counts, its not all based on knockback anymore, since there is a brief instance between every strike this allows time for both players to make and manipulate a new play, essentially changing up the fight after every Whiff, hit, critical, or even yess.. A combo.
you can still combo in 1.9, jitter clicking is still usful in small bursts especially to ruin opposing maneuvers.
2. ' 'Enhanced archery'- I really have no idea what to say to this' Truth been told... The archery system was changed drastically from versions 1.8 - 1.9 Other than just 'that shields can block 100% of arrow damage, vs. sword blocking a portion of the arrow damage.' The projectile paths of arrows were revamped and take into account a lot of your movement, Drastically changing projectile direction based on current motion during release. Example: Jumping up and releasing the arrow while falling will drastically make the arrow plummet. This mechanic I use a lot when hitting targets behind low cover dropping the arrow on-top of them (2-3 blocks tall). The arrows in 1.8 are more of a beam and don't take into account vertical player-movement. Arrows also got nerfed while in water (dropping drastically short in to a vertical plummet). Not to mention the 14+ new types of arrows they added into the game.
Read more here:Bow link
Here is a quick Pic at a general Addition summary between 1.8 and 1.9 (not full list ofc)
3. 'Maneuver strafes'- A drastic and game changing addition, Having the proper maneuver at the right time is even more essential than it is in 1.8. " In 1.8, how you strafe not only effects how you and your opponent aim at each other, but also how you deal knockback", and the same is only even more true for 1.9, keyword Knockback. 1.8 combat is almost completely based on knockback. To achieve a combo lock you must maneuver into an opponent whilst 'Locking' them in with your knockback... Rods and eggs are both just different methods to knockback the opponent just before they are within range so you can manipulate the situation when they are within range. " present in 1.8 (with block placement / rods in most hardcore-PvP gamemodes that have them)" You say this as if they are not present in 1.9 as well, These techniques / methods are still widely used and i have seen it... They did not disappear when the combat update was released. "but instead of just movement there are rods involved" Again also present in 1.9 and so are lava buckets.
"FnS / Lava buckets - generally not as prevalent in 1.9" I would disagree, this is based on the individual players combat preference and the materials they have at hand... but was never eliminated nor even changed when the combat update was released.
You bring up the point that if you use a rod in 1.9 you will have to sacrifice your cool down timer... In 1.9 you do have 2 hands and I don't really pvp with rods, so im pretty sure you can just like have a rod in your left hand, and a sword in your right. Also breaking a combo in 1.8 i'snt that hard, you could just turn directly opposite and run in that direction, in 1.9 failing to miss anything, a movement, a strike, a maneuver, will immediately open a window for the opponent to manipulate and take advantage. Ill get more into this in the 4th section but just to put it broadly right now: Every action is a new play (in 1.9).
4. "'Dodging'- This is something I see 1.9 players bring up a lot", And rightfully so. Dodging is not really a thing in 1.8, because click speed prevents it. its hard to Whiff a hit when you can diss out 15 of them in less than a second, and if you do thats on you usually not an outplaying maneuver by your opponent.
In 1.9 Dodging is a maneuver to get your opponent to whiff and restart their cooldown timer. You can evade a dodge if you want by clicking multiple times and giving them a bit a knockback.
Because fights are based on attack times and maneuvers everything you do counts, its not all based on knockback anymore, since there is a brief instance between every strike this allows time for both players to make and manipulate a new play, essentially changing up the fight after every Whiff, hit, critical, or even yess.. A combo.
you can still combo in 1.9, jitter clicking is still usful in small bursts especially to ruin opposing maneuvers.
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Ill cover the other 2 sections in a bit / tomorrow
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Going to come back to timed hits in a bit
Archery still has very similar mechanics compared to previously- Movement already DID have input on arrow trajectory, it was just increased a bit. While longer-range bowshots do change with this, the basics of the system are so similar that you can easily switch between 1.8 and 1.9 and not have any difficulties adjusting. There aren't many points in time where you will be firing arrows in water.Even though there were 14 different arrow types, they basically break down to 3 categories:
1. Damage (used exactly the same as in prior versions, just apply poison or extra damage)
2. Healing / self buffs (low-charge shots to hit self for buffs)
3. Generally useless / other (arrows that realistically aren't going to have an impact, or that don't fit into the other catergories. Generally not used at all, or do not change playstyle at all).
Only 1 catergory (buffs) truly uses a bow/arrow in a different way. Even then, its very simple- you just aim up and fire weak arrows to self-buff.
Rods do not function the same in 1.8 vs. 1.8- They are not tools for the neutral that deal knockback, and is generally a lot less threatening IMO (although it can be EXTREMELY scary in an axe vs. sword matchup), other than that- With how offhand works, players are generally 'locked into' an option, and their secondaries are a lot more broadcasted (since you can see they intend to use it if it is in their offhand), and using multiple secondaries is much more limited (because again, you lose sword charge if you switch to another item).
Dodging isnt really a thing in either- Again, you aren't 'dodging', you dont see somebody swing a sword and then make a move to evade it, you are just making small movements to try and get people to whiff so they have no sword charge. Thats not a dodge though, its a dodge if its on reaction- Moving to try and get somebody to whiff isnt that. You can physically 'dodge' a rod in 1.8, but its pretty limited and most of the time you are just looking for the other person to miss a rod so you can punish.
Combos are.... very limited by comparison in 1.9. Not saying they dont happen, but in a lot of cases where they happen, they are a bit more avoidable than in 1.8. Jitterclicking also is NOT a thing in 1.9, because you waste all of your sword charge, but don't hit them (because of the hit delay), you just wait less and throw out like a half-charge sword hit, and see if people just keep running into it over and over thinking they can hit you when they can't.
Archery still has very similar mechanics compared to previously- Movement already DID have input on arrow trajectory, it was just increased a bit. While longer-range bowshots do change with this, the basics of the system are so similar that you can easily switch between 1.8 and 1.9 and not have any difficulties adjusting. There aren't many points in time where you will be firing arrows in water.Even though there were 14 different arrow types, they basically break down to 3 categories:
1. Damage (used exactly the same as in prior versions, just apply poison or extra damage)
2. Healing / self buffs (low-charge shots to hit self for buffs)
3. Generally useless / other (arrows that realistically aren't going to have an impact, or that don't fit into the other catergories. Generally not used at all, or do not change playstyle at all).
Only 1 catergory (buffs) truly uses a bow/arrow in a different way. Even then, its very simple- you just aim up and fire weak arrows to self-buff.
Rods do not function the same in 1.8 vs. 1.8- They are not tools for the neutral that deal knockback, and is generally a lot less threatening IMO (although it can be EXTREMELY scary in an axe vs. sword matchup), other than that- With how offhand works, players are generally 'locked into' an option, and their secondaries are a lot more broadcasted (since you can see they intend to use it if it is in their offhand), and using multiple secondaries is much more limited (because again, you lose sword charge if you switch to another item).
Dodging isnt really a thing in either- Again, you aren't 'dodging', you dont see somebody swing a sword and then make a move to evade it, you are just making small movements to try and get people to whiff so they have no sword charge. Thats not a dodge though, its a dodge if its on reaction- Moving to try and get somebody to whiff isnt that. You can physically 'dodge' a rod in 1.8, but its pretty limited and most of the time you are just looking for the other person to miss a rod so you can punish.
Combos are.... very limited by comparison in 1.9. Not saying they dont happen, but in a lot of cases where they happen, they are a bit more avoidable than in 1.8. Jitterclicking also is NOT a thing in 1.9, because you waste all of your sword charge, but don't hit them (because of the hit delay), you just wait less and throw out like a half-charge sword hit, and see if people just keep running into it over and over thinking they can hit you when they can't.
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Got back from doing something as well...
I certainly have a few difficulty's adjusting to 1.8 archery that may be on my part but, its not too difficult and you are right they are similar but I do still conciser it Enhanced because it has more features and I like the adjusted bow mechanics.
I agree with you are the use of the word dodging... Its more of like, a preemptive dodge.. if that is even a thing. Like predict they are going strike and move in order for them to Whiff their strike.
"Jitterclicking also is NOT a thing in 1.9, because you waste all of your sword charge, but don't hit them (because of the hit delay)" False. I jitterclick all the time in 1.9 still.
Clicking fast will immediately restart your attack timer making you do close to no damage at all, but the player damage mechanics are still the same as they were when they existed in 1.8 (besides armor and shields) so the best way to explain how you can still use it is to tell how exactly I use it;
Imagine im fighting someone in 1.9 who is around the same skill level. Like stated above there are new types of strafes more or less designed / used to provoke a whiff /\. So imagine I do whiff? At this movement, I have already made a heavy mistake they could cost me possibly even the match... especially since my opponent is of the same skill level, they will take advantage of my mistake and manipulate the situation.
How can I avoid this besides just not whiffing? and the answer is Jitterclicking.
If I keep my attack bar at full when engaging. and when im ready to strike rather than tap just once to hit, instead I would do like a small (what I like to call) jitter burst. Its jitterclicking, but I only let out 3-5 hits (or less) in way under a second. Yes everything that hits after the first strike does little to no damage, but keeping a controlled burst wont effect your cooldown too much (maybe .2 seconds) and will stall the opponent from maneuvering if you do whiff that first hit, because you get that bit of knockback and maybe take an 1/2 heart. Even if you dont whiff, hitting them with a small jitterburst can also give you an edge, because you land your first hit (dealing full damage) and possible +1 small strike giving them an extra bit of knockback and possibly diminishing a bit of their health (at the cost of a few milliseconds). Milliseconds are crucial but if done correctly jitterbursting is a technique that works, and I definitely can vouch for it, giving me the edge in plenty of situations. Denying "dodges" and giving an extra push to which is most usually unexpected and to my own leisure.
Not sure what to use instead of the word dodge just yet (hlp)...
I certainly have a few difficulty's adjusting to 1.8 archery that may be on my part but, its not too difficult and you are right they are similar but I do still conciser it Enhanced because it has more features and I like the adjusted bow mechanics.
I agree with you are the use of the word dodging... Its more of like, a preemptive dodge.. if that is even a thing. Like predict they are going strike and move in order for them to Whiff their strike.
"Jitterclicking also is NOT a thing in 1.9, because you waste all of your sword charge, but don't hit them (because of the hit delay)" False. I jitterclick all the time in 1.9 still.
Clicking fast will immediately restart your attack timer making you do close to no damage at all, but the player damage mechanics are still the same as they were when they existed in 1.8 (besides armor and shields) so the best way to explain how you can still use it is to tell how exactly I use it;
Imagine im fighting someone in 1.9 who is around the same skill level. Like stated above there are new types of strafes more or less designed / used to provoke a whiff /\. So imagine I do whiff? At this movement, I have already made a heavy mistake they could cost me possibly even the match... especially since my opponent is of the same skill level, they will take advantage of my mistake and manipulate the situation.
How can I avoid this besides just not whiffing? and the answer is Jitterclicking.
If I keep my attack bar at full when engaging. and when im ready to strike rather than tap just once to hit, instead I would do like a small (what I like to call) jitter burst. Its jitterclicking, but I only let out 3-5 hits (or less) in way under a second. Yes everything that hits after the first strike does little to no damage, but keeping a controlled burst wont effect your cooldown too much (maybe .2 seconds) and will stall the opponent from maneuvering if you do whiff that first hit, because you get that bit of knockback and maybe take an 1/2 heart. Even if you dont whiff, hitting them with a small jitterburst can also give you an edge, because you land your first hit (dealing full damage) and possible +1 small strike giving them an extra bit of knockback and possibly diminishing a bit of their health (at the cost of a few milliseconds). Milliseconds are crucial but if done correctly jitterbursting is a technique that works, and I definitely can vouch for it, giving me the edge in plenty of situations. Denying "dodges" and giving an extra push to which is most usually unexpected and to my own leisure.
Not sure what to use instead of the word dodge just yet (hlp)...
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Clicking works the same way, but because you lose attack charge clicking above the hit limit harms you, because otherwise you could be dealing substantially more damage and combos don't work in nearly the same way in 1.9 vs. 1.8.
If you do whiff, you can still do a low-charge attack to prevent somebody from getting a free crit/combo, but you shouldn't be jitterclicking- You should just land the hit and back off.
even if you 'jitter burst' you still waste a decent bit of charge in doing so, and in a lot of cases it isn't going to be necessary or benefit you in any way. What I personally do is I attack and immediately move back (this can get people to whiff), and if I miss if they jump or move forward I do another single click to stop their momentum.
If you do whiff, you can still do a low-charge attack to prevent somebody from getting a free crit/combo, but you shouldn't be jitterclicking- You should just land the hit and back off.
even if you 'jitter burst' you still waste a decent bit of charge in doing so, and in a lot of cases it isn't going to be necessary or benefit you in any way. What I personally do is I attack and immediately move back (this can get people to whiff), and if I miss if they jump or move forward I do another single click to stop their momentum.
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But if you are in range and they are engaging? Your back motion is slower than their forward sprint, breaking their maneuver to wards you with a jitterburst is effective, and I use it all the time .-.
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I mean, most of the information on 1.8 (and 1.9, to an extent) in this thread is plain wrong. Don't have time to 'defend 1.8' here right now, but can possibly tomorrow.
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please do!
Im intrigued.
Im intrigued.
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1.9 brought variety. See it this way. The ones who wanted this kind of system can use it, the ones who don't, just don't. It's the beautiful way Minecraft works, they don't force you to use the latest update. 1.9 just gave people the option to use it, it's in no way mandatory.
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Im at the upmost agreement,
Minecraft is free to play in any way you feel you want to play it, and that option is present in practically every (square) inch of the game allowing it to be optimised to your upmost enjoyment.
Pvp included..
But somtimes its good to have a standard on things, and when it comes to combat in this game both versions in my experiance require a differnt skill set and its hard to maintain both. Obviously custom servers not included as they are but unique, but as it comes to the basic 1.8 Vs 1.9 systems in default minecraft, I would still like to see a more general skill set between all players rather than a major devide between people that play 1.8, and 1.9...
I still like to play both on occation, but iv lost most of my strafing and cobo abilitys in turn for 1.9's new strafes iv grown accustom to because i prefer it more.
Minecraft is free to play in any way you feel you want to play it, and that option is present in practically every (square) inch of the game allowing it to be optimised to your upmost enjoyment.
Pvp included..
But somtimes its good to have a standard on things, and when it comes to combat in this game both versions in my experiance require a differnt skill set and its hard to maintain both. Obviously custom servers not included as they are but unique, but as it comes to the basic 1.8 Vs 1.9 systems in default minecraft, I would still like to see a more general skill set between all players rather than a major devide between people that play 1.8, and 1.9...
I still like to play both on occation, but iv lost most of my strafing and cobo abilitys in turn for 1.9's new strafes iv grown accustom to because i prefer it more.
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From my competative standpoint at least.
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Mojang also implemented this quite well. Since it's not mandatory to update, people won't leave because of an update immediately. Because updates keep going, it becomes more and more attractive to update eventually. Meanwhile, users can let it sink for a while and evaluate again.
Compare the standpoints now with when it first came out. People are way more relaxed and cool with the change now than it used to be. I think this will eventually become a standard much like we accept horses now.
This is something we don't often see with other games e.g. on Steam.
Compare the standpoints now with when it first came out. People are way more relaxed and cool with the change now than it used to be. I think this will eventually become a standard much like we accept horses now.
This is something we don't often see with other games e.g. on Steam.
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Still open to discuss this thread
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bump? :D
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Nyeh, noone cares
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I agree with you, 1.9 pvp requires more skill and timing, and it gives more reaction time, better for more fleshed out pvp. But the pvp system is highly controversial and should be optional in my opinion, as a default enabled gamerule and setting for world creation.
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I have no problem with it being Optional, having a choice is why MC is such a good sanbox game, But I also think for the competative side, 1.9+ should be standard.
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I like 1.8 because I'm a traditional fundamentalist who prefers the vanilla game prior to Microsoft's influence. All this new stuff is forcing mods on users who do not wish to use them. Minecraft is becoming an MMORPG instead of a sandbox game.
I hate Microsoft for ruining Minecraft.
I hate Microsoft for ruining Windows.
Can I die already?
I hate Microsoft for ruining Minecraft.
I hate Microsoft for ruining Windows.
Can I die already?
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Microsoft influence isnt all that bad,
it will ensure the games existence backed by all that $$, and its making them alot of it, so you will see it expand and push more in the future.
Minecraft is at its largest rn that it has been ever with over 75 million active users daily. While I can agree to disagree with alot of things Microsoft has done... they relatively left Mojang to free reign, and they have been really open with the community more so than in the past. I should Know im following their twitter and discord. :D
it will ensure the games existence backed by all that $$, and its making them alot of it, so you will see it expand and push more in the future.
Minecraft is at its largest rn that it has been ever with over 75 million active users daily. While I can agree to disagree with alot of things Microsoft has done... they relatively left Mojang to free reign, and they have been really open with the community more so than in the past. I should Know im following their twitter and discord. :D
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Maybe I can get some more people to join .-.
New people from Mc discord?
:))
New people from Mc discord?
:))
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